Good People, Cool Things
Good People, Cool Things

Episode 5 · 2 years ago

5: Music and Food with Tavola Chef Michael Keaveny

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This episode's guest is Michael Keaveny, chef and owner of Tavola and author of the new book Tavola: 10 Greatest Hits – Music and Food. Michael and I chat about his experience working in restaurants as a teenager and one of his favorite dishes, the power of being the hardest person in the room, and the biggest difference between successful and unsuccessful restaurants. Spoiler alert: these same principles apply to to any business.

Welcome to good people, cool things, the podcast featuring conversations with entrepreneurs, writers, musicians and other creatives. I'm your host, Joey held, and today's guest is Michael Keviny, chef and owner of Tavola and author of the New Book Tabla ten greatest hits music and food. Michael and I chat about his experience working in restaurants as a teenager and one of his favorite dishes, the power of being the hardest working person in the room and the biggest difference between successful and unsuccessful restaurants. Spoiler alert, these same principles apply to any business, of course. We also chat plenty of music and why creating the right atmosphere for the dining experience is such an important thing to get right. Let's dive on it. First starters, I would love to hear about your background, how you got into cooking in the first place. Do you remember the very first thing that you made? I grew up in Hartford, Connecticut and we hung out with these kids that lived around the corner and their father owned the restaurant, so we got to kind of go into the restaurant during off hours and you know the their dad would tell the cooks to make these guys in order of Fried Calamari, which in those days, we're talking mid s here, Fried Calamari was a treat and a rarity you didn't have, you know, this wasn't something on anyone's menu besides the real Italian restaurants. So I kind of got a little bit of the Food Bug from from that. When my brother, who's two years older than me, my brother Brian, turned sixteen, he started working at carbones restaurant, which is the family that I mentioned. So it became kind of a certainty that when I turned sixteen I would also work there, which I did, and I started washing dishes and I hated the job, but I love being in the restaurant and I love watching the guys cook. Again, this was the s and they were just like this team of guys that were all cool. They're really into music. They listen to music all day and talked about, you know, music and what they're going to do later out and I was always jealous I couldn't go out with them, but they had a camaraderie and during service and you know, just to watch them interactings, and it wasn't always positive, but at the end of the night they cracked the beer and they cheers and and everything was laughed about and all was right in the world again, and that just really was something that I wanted in on, and so I, you know, kind of beg to get promoted up to a prep cook and that's kind of how it started. You know, from there I kept going up and up and up and and you know it, I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with not not just the food and the idea of being a chef. That hadn't it yet, but just the idea of doing this thing that was kind of out of the ordinary and there hours are different than normal jobs and your work weekends and you hang you know, you work late at night, then you hang out till even later at night and sleep in, and it just really had a strong appeal to me. Now that's super cool. I think that's a thing that sometimes gets overlooked, is the camaraderie aspect of everything. Like, yeah, you might be working late hours and up all night, but you have a bond that I think it's pretty hard to find in a lot of careers and it's odd because that bomb can go away if somebody gives two weeks notice, like you've been in the trenches with this guy for two years and you swear you're going to be, you know, lifelong buddies, and it goes away as quick as it arrived, you know, and then you form a bond with the next guy that takes his place, you know, hopefully. And so it's like...

I don't keep up with half the people I wish I did. I'm just it's not what I'm good at, is keeping up relationships. But I've met some amazing people through, you know, almost forty years of being in the industry. Absolutely so. You you started as a prep cook, like you said. Do you still was Calamari the first thing that you made? Oh my God, I used to have to cut twenty pounds of Calamari a day, feeling the Vane, thirty pounds of shrimp a day, and my friends would pick me up in front of a restaurant at, you know, nine o'clock, ten o'clock to go out to a party and they'd be mortified. You can we can't, you can't go in there smelling like that, and so I had to, you know, really take a almost a shower and a little sink and change of clothes and everything else just to be presentable. But yeah, so Calamari. It's interesting because that was one of the dishes that kind of, like I said, it wasn't on Menus. You didn't have the chains that we have now back then and you could really only get it at very few restaurants. And I just when I first had I always love pride clams and this was just a whole different world to me than fried clams. But I loved I guess I had a thing for fried seafood. But there was when I was fifteen years old, before I started working there, my birthday was coming up in my parents said what do you want for your birthday and I said all I want is to go to Carmon's and they said okay, well, you know, and that was a high end restaurant. That wasn't you know. That wasn't a place we chose to go on a win. That was a celebratory meal and because it was expensive. And so the idea was that I was going there on my birthday and as my birthday approach I was only looking forward to I'm going to have the fried Calamari next week. I'm gonna have to FRY calamars and the night of the night we're set to go, I couldn't be more excited. We get in the car, we pull out and get down the street and my mother's is up. I forgot my purse. We got to go back to the house and we drive back to the House and my mother says, Michael, run it, running a house and grab my purse. It's on my bet or something, and I go in the House and a bunch of my friends that are and they all jump out and say surprise. My parents come in and it's a surprise birthday party for me and I was mortify. So, no, you mean we're not going to car bones, you know, and I was. It's my first memory of like food disappointment. I didn't want the surprise party, I wanted the Fride Calamari. I want to go to car bones, but anyway, yeah, so first first Prep Cook job was pretty messy one and of course I wanted to move on from that as quickly as possible and ended nice. I'll man, that's a that's a devastating birthday traumatic. All right, well, we'll move on to happier memories then. So from yeah, Cook, you think I eventually got there, but yeah, maybe just a night or two of scarred scar memories there. Yeah. So what was your path than from Prep Cook into eventually opening up your own restaurant? I think that it was interesting because, like I said, I love the industry, I love the Camaraderie, I love everything about it. I love the hours. I didn't mind working a weekends because when I got out it was still early enough to enjoy the evening and the cool thing was I was sober. You know, most of my friends have been drinking for several hours, so I was, you know, more in control and I always enjoyed that. But I feel like I I moved up in a carbones and worked...

...a couple stations and then seafood restaurant was opening up nearby and I had a passion for seafood, bull feeding and cooking, so I decided to break my long standing relationship for carbones and go to this new restaurant that was opening, a seafood restaurant, and that was a whole new experience because it was the first time I ever actually opened a restaurant, which is totally different than just going to work for an established restaurant. You you work extremely hard. You work around the clock because you know it's just trying to get this place open and you of you know as a cook, we had to say and things and we we were part of something that was being born and that was really a cool experience and I love that and so I love that job as well. And I think that around this time I was figuring and I was also realizing that this is something I'm good at. Wherever I've worked, I moved up very quickly and chefs always come came to rely on me, and I decided that my thing was going to be that I didn't know whether I was, you know, ever going to be a great chef or be, you know, a creative chef, but no one was going to work harder and me. And it became a parent early on that if you show the chef or your boss or the owner that you can be the hardest person, hardiest working person in the room, that that's going to serve you very well. So that became my goal and all through my career I always had a philosophy that you could be a chef and and if you have a flexible schedule, you can work fifty hours a week and be a really good chef. You can work sixty hours a week and be a great chef or you can work seventy eight hours a week and be a phenomenal chef. Will I always wanted to be a phenomenal chef, so I put in the time and the work and always cooked on the line to instead of you know, I see some chefs to like to hold a clipboard and expedite and I never thought that that was very useful for the restaurant and a good, good use of his salary. But so I around that time when I was working at secret restaurant, I decided that I think this is because I'm good at it, because I enjoy I think this is what I want to do, and so I decided to work at as many different restaurants to get as many not only to learn as many dishes but to get just the way things are run. I was very interested in how different restaurants were run, the kitchen differently and they all had their certain style of management and how the kitchen runs. So I didn't want to jump from job to job. I usually stayed about a year, but I wanted to work in as many places as possible and meanwhile I had graduated high school and went to Community College for a restaurant management so I could get that, a degree in that under my belt. And then when, in two years, I got that and then decided that if I was going to pursue this I needed to get out of Hartford. Hartford just was going through an economic countern. The restaurant seen there was not strong and also I needed to get out of my comfort zone and go apply myself. So I took kind of baby steps. The first thing I did is I moved to Nantuckett for a summer at the advice of a couple of other cooks and I went by myself and I got two jobs and work around the clock and then suck it for the summer. But I got to know all these other cooks that had come from all over New England and some as far as actually Europe, and it kind of you know it, and then from there you know, okay, well, let's go to culinary school, let's round round out...

...the whole experience and then I'm ready for the big move, which was San Francisco. So it was a progression and always, always cooking, always buying books with every every dollar that I made that didn't go to rent was either buying books are going to restaurants to experience someone else's food. Was it became a bit of an obsession, a good obsession, but an obsession. Just to backtrack a little bit, can you kind of go into because I think the restaurant management side of things is very interesting as well and maybe not as visible to people that aren't in that industry. So can you kind of talk a little bit about what you saw maybe that was consistent among the different stops that you had along the way, and then what kind of stood out to you from a couple of places? So for ninety percent of my career I've been in the kitchen, but there have been a few jobs where I was front of House manager as well as going to school for that. The school didn't didn't do much to prepare you for the real world, to be honest, the real restaurant world. But when I took I was a chef at a place in New York and the owners went through a series of managers at the time that I was a chef and I think I jokingly said to them one time the kitchens on autopilot. I could I could be your manager and I think they scheduled a meeting the next week and they said Hey, you know, we thought about it and we think you should. We think that'd be a great thing for the restaurant and for yourself, and as somebody that aspired to own his own restaurant someday, I jumped at the opportunity because I was in a comfort zone in the kitchen. The kitchen is very it's not easy to run, but it's clearly defined. We're fun at a house just has so many, you know, so so many aspects to it that it's it was actually a little overwhelming. I remember my first day as a manager. Food was up, the phone was ringing and people were standing at just waked in and I didn't know which one would dress purposed. I remember freezing and my sue step watching me, laughing hysterically, and it got better from there. But I think it also, to answer your question, I think that one thing that I always tried to do was the key in on on what made successful restaurant successful and what made failed restaurants, which I worked at a number of restaurants that sailed, what made them failures and the try to differentiate the the really even a subliminal things, small things, that were the difference between those two restaurants, and I took a lot of mental notes of these things so that when I opened my own restaurant, I would do the things that I were important to me as an employee. I would make sure that, you know, I did for my employees, and I think that that was the biggest difference that I saw, is the successful restaurants took care of their employees and they they treated all of them as equals, as partners, as valuable, you know, parts of the puzzle, whereas the unsuccessful restaurants were always looking to save a dollar at the expense of treating people with, you know, just just disrespectfully or with the lack of dignity. And so you know that that was one of the main lessons that I learned and, you know, having come up as a dishwasher and all the way through the ranks, it gave me a good perspective every every aspect of the restaurant that that, you know, that's necessary for a functional, successful restaurant. So it was a it's it's a lifelong learning experience and I'm still learning to stay but I always try to you know, put in practice those those things that I learned coming up through the ranks. So I'm not that answers.

Oh, absolutely, on perhaps not. But the most surprising thing it's take care of your employees, I think, which I think is a good lesson for a lot of businesses regardless. Yeah, and it's surprisingly more rare than it should be. Yeah, especially in restaurants. And I liked the note that you're still learning as well, because I think it is certainly an every day you know, you can, you can get something new out of it. And I know we were talking before we started recording about technology, which I assume has probably changed the restaurant industry at least in a few ways. Can you kind of talk into how, you know things today might not have been the same ten or fifteen years ago thanks to technology, or maybe not thanks to but because of technology? Well, there's there's obviously, you know, I think any discussion that technology we have to point at a fact that there's good and bad. I think that with technology, you know, restaurants are always you know, have become easier to operate, easier to track numbers. I'm a numbers guy and I look at the numbers all the time and to track them through a computer instead of sitting down with a calculator and a pad of paper is certainly saved you a lot of time. However, for many years, including after the computer became a part of business, I was still using my calculator and my trustee calculator and pad and doing most things by, you know, mathematics, by Head in hand. I'm an old school type of person and I want tablet that an old, old school vibe. There was one night when, for one reason or another, dud the hosting situation when you're on a two two and a half hour away, is very dunking for our young hosts, and so one of our managers, with all the best intentions, derived the system where we used a computer and I reluctantly agreed and then walked into the dining room and the computer was sitting on a shelf facing the customers and I almost got a heart attack. Wow, I had to shut it down completely and just take it away and I'm like that chest doesn't fit in our room. We are, you know, we're playing this classic old school music where we're you know, we've got the smiling waiters walking around where the open kitchen, the smells, the site's sounds. This is all human contact. There's no technology, there's no waiters with head head phones on, there's you know, and so I feel like as much as we have, we have tried to avoid modern technology coming into the customer experience and will always and every time it gets brought up at a meeting, I always turn that down, you know, and I would rather us have to work a little harder than to make it easier with an APP or with you know this and that. But then again, all my music on, all my twelve, thirteen, fourteen playlists are all on are not spotify. Are Still on Itunes, believe it or not, and I manage those. And I've had horrific experiences with itunes, including one I'm going through now where one time all my music completely doubled. Another time I lost all my music and they agree to replenish eighty percent of it and it took about a week of downloads. Wow, absolutely the computer running console and then I had to do the playlists all over again. And then recently somebody worked on my computer and all the playlists got strangely cut in half, not deleted, just went from six hours to three hours. So now I am having to go on each...

...playlist and adding the songs that are missing in the order of where they would be, and it's you know, it's just a constant struggle with itunes and I've been on the phone with itunes senior it guys in there like I've never seen this before. You don't know what's going on. It's just me and computers, is what it is. I just have had bad luck with it. Well, I guess maybe that's a little comforting, if if even the Apple Support Team doesn't know what's going on, or maybe it's more discouraging. I'm not sure. Yeah, it's very discouraging for my it guy because he always feels probably guilty. Then you know, these things happen whenever he touches by computer and I felt that you to me, whatever fell and ever in the universe just doesn't want me to connect with Elsa, to put a vinyl album on and, you know, a turntable. Oh, absolutely, I remember. I mean I always say I was born a couple decades too late because I feel like I'm in spiritually a child of the S, even though I was born in the s. But just, yeah, just putting a vinyl on. It's just like such a unique experience that I think it sounds richer and fuller and I don't think like when I first heard of disc contact, this guy hated it sounded so thin and Tinny and I remember the song even. It was a marina by Elton John and God I was just like, man, I can hear those snare drums are so seeing and just it sounds awful. So I don't even mind the POPs and hisses and whatever. You know, I find that comforting when I put a vital album. Yeah, I think it adds character to it. Yeah, exactly, and that's a Nice Seguay into your book, which I mean I've never really seen this of of your tasting notes in here, where you pair some of your dishes with songs that are either related to the tissues or bring up a special memory or something like that, which I love that concept. I thought this was thoroughly enjoyable. And where did the the concept for that? Did it start way back in the early days when you were listening to music and just chatting with with the other cooks, or when did you you know, hey, I want to turn this into a book. Well, first of all the music at table, and the reason it's part of the book is because it's I wanted the book to be like the restaurant, you know, unpretentious, simple, straightforward, and in order for the book to be like the restaurant, the music had to be involved because we have, we have become the music is part of the discussion about how great the restaurant is. What I talked to customers. The VIBE is a big part of why we are on a two our way. It's not, you know, anyone can have good food, good good wine, good service, but it's two little things that when people are in your restaurant, how good they feel? Well, they that's what they remember that. They may think it's the food and line, but I think subconsciously that's what. Never remembers how good they felt in your place and that's what friends them back. So when we were opening I was very overwhelmed. We're trying to get the doors open, running out of money and I had written a menu months before. I thought were going to open in May and we ended up opening July. Two days before we open, I look at the venue and it's a spring menu. So I had to sit down and rewrite the menu and reteach, you know, re rethink out the all the things involved with putting out that menu. And then the day of opening I realized that, you know, I didn't just want to go...

...on spotify. I don't think spotify may or may not have existed then as ten years ago, but I think scandora did, and I didn't want to just go on Pandora and make, you know, put a playlist out there. I wanted to at least do something that I put together. So I sat down and in one hour, just through a bunch of albums and I went with the jazz and, you know, Frank Sinatra and and, you know, Madeline Perot and all the stuff that other restaurants are playing and as them cooking that night and hearing the next song, I would kind of cringe and just not that this is bad music or anything, but it just wasn't me. It wasn't Kabbala, and so I said, well, tomorrow I'm going to work on that and I started to put together a list that I wanted to hear what I'm cooking a little selfish and hope that people responded to it, or at least didn't feel it was out of place most people expect in a little Italian restaurant. And I heard it pretty often at the beginning. Where's the Frank Sinatra? Where's the Dean Martin was, you know, and I didn't want to go that route. I didn't want to be predictable. I don't want to I likes Frank Sinatra as much the next time. But and he is on my playlists, but it's not Frank Sinatra's Candora chknel. So I put together a playlist of songs. I like a lot of stuff from the S and S and I tried to go a little more obscure because I get brought down by the the industry, the music industry, where you know your pumped the same song. Superstition is a great song, but God, I got it here at five times a day, you know. And and who wants to hear it again when they come to your restaurant? So that was a important part of it was to have some sense of obscurity. What I wanted to hear from people is I haven't heard that Song in thirty years, twenty years, or seeing them shazanning the song that's playing, and I would always go over today I'm your personal Shazam. I can tell you who does this, you know and so and and when I did that and I was cooking, you know it. I enjoyed listening to that music while I was cooking. It kept me going and inspired me. I'm working very hard at this point. You know, long twelve, thirteen hour days for a forty something year old is a tough work day, over and over and over and and also, you know my Shushaf. At the time we were just getting to know each other and he'd asked me about this song and that song and that's a good song, and who's this and this man? And it just became and then started to hear from customers, Hey, what's channel? Is this? What Pandora Station is? Is What? And it became started to become a discussion, and then I did another playlist and then another playlist and all but the same and never the same song on each playlist. And then I put the songs in a row that I thought they would work and it became again a bit of an obsession and I take a little bit of flat from my staff on it, but they also realized that people do actually comment on the music all the time. So I think that as and the book was my wife's idea and Tammy came to me and said I have this great idea for a ten year anniversary. I want to do a book and instead of paring just wine, I think you should pair a song with each beachtish and I thought was a great idea, but I didn't exactly know how to how a song is a peer and it and we figured it out and we made connections between you know, this is old school while this dish is old school, stuff like that. But it was very difficult to find ten songs and I even tried to cheat. I tried to put a little thing in princes. It could eat. It could just have easily been this song, and then I get another ten songs in there, but I got turned down for that idea. But but I think we made the choices and I'm trying to get, and I'm scared to do this because of me...

...and technology, but I'm trying to get all those playlist that we have on spotify for public consumption, so to speak, from trying to try to get my daughter to do that for me. She's fourteen. She's got a busy social schedule right now. So, but hopefully that that'll happen soon, because I think it's it would be fun if somebody's, especially if someone's doing a dinner party based on my book or someone additions from my book, to be able to tap into a Tabla playlist and they are they are. I will say without any shame, that they are really good. I listened to him when you know all the time there's a lot of diversity on there too. Nice. That's yeah, I would love as a frequent spotify user, I would love to have those playlists available. I would think they would. Everybody would think they'd be popular. Absolutely. Yeah, that's I and I like it for a dinner party too. I was this is not necessarily the same thing, but I was at a murder mystery party and they had a curated sort of like jazz s playlist going on and I was like this, Oh yeah, this feels like. This feels great, like anything else wouldn't wouldn't have worked, and I'm glad they took the time for that. So it is. It is amazing that the touches music live and you're setting yeah, and you know there's very big on the vibe of a restaurant. I walk into a restaurant and I assess the temperature, the lighting, the noise, the music, the lack of music, the music to load. It's just the droning background, the energy in the room. You know, all these things create that bybe what's us the psychology of dying. Like I said, it's not the thing that you think bring your back or that you think you're you think it's food and line and service, but the vibe of the room is really crucial to the dining experience and I obsess over all of it. I constantly am adjusting the lighting, the volume of the music and I want to love but you don't want it to low that you can't tell what song is playing. The attitude of servers and how they carry themselves through the room, Absurdur by, the mood of the kitchen Absurdur bybe. It's so many things and and I really do believe that the music is such an important element to that, especially at problem. Once again, a beautiful segue into the top three, which I like to wrap up all of these episodes with, and I would ask for top three song and dish pairings that are in the book, but I feel like that I want people to check out the book. So how about your top three songs that you play a tople that didn't make it into the book but you still think are worth checking out and add into your your cook and playlist? Wow, that's a that is a tough one. I'm actually opening up the past here. Basically, I have twelve playlists that are all fixed and a half hours long. Like I said, there's no repeats. But then, for reasons of our anniversary party in this and that, I came up with the best of the playlist right and that ended up being like ten hours long, and so when we play that you wouldn't really be abill hear all of it. So I turned it into two playlists, which is the best of and best of part two. Some look...

...look in here. What one song that I think will have familiarity. I'm not going to go to obscure for this because when people hear it, I want them to be able to relate to the song and why I think it goes in the room. But going the California by led Zeppelin is a good example of a song you probably wouldn't hear on many restaurant playlists and when that song comes on in the room. It has such a comming effect. It's just this beautiful guitar playing and just this just very comforting. You know, his voice in that song is this very comforting and you know it's nostalgic. It's California and it just for some reason that song just worked so much better than I thought it would. So I might throw that one right. For that one out there. I'm a huge steely Dan fan, huge wilco Fan. Some of the early playlist had a lot of Willco out. That's what I was listening to at the time. The Eisley brothers, stevie wonders, a Elton John. The Song Heaven by the talking heads sounds great. Age of consent by New Order is not on the top ten, but it's probably my favorite song from the S. I always say it's impossible to hear that song and not being a good mood. So if you're and I put things in certain time frames, so that song comes on right around ten o'clock, so it's what's is. Also I'm also thinking of my staff, you know, and that opening bass riff, you know, Danannar and just gives the the room a little energy. It gives the cooks little energy. I have to say, even though it's in the book, I want to I want to get next to you. By Rose Royce from the s from the car wash plate soundtrack is Pablos Song. Like that Song, when the that opening base rip comes on, just my I would have cooks that would just look at me and smile, you know, and just like for one of means to night's almost go over and for two. That song is just like such classic, warm soul and I don't know how it was never a huge hit. It was never, never even in the top ten. I'm radio play or anything like that, but it's such an amazing, amazing song. Another song that that has been with us for a long time as making plans for Nigel by XTC, and not that that's it was mostly in the bar, but that song would always get a lot of customer comments. Let's see it. Also in the sunshine by Roy ears, which you may know. My son will roll his eyes if he hears this because every time it comes on it said Jack. You remember Dr Dre in the movie compton out of Compton and he was in his bedroom listening to a song. I said that was Roy are. Is another guy that doesn't get. Have to respect he deserves such an amazing soul artist. That's always a good bit of Trivia to is when you're in a movie and you hear a song like that, where it's just like yeah, yes, yeah, there's pretty obscure pick. There's a song called wild safari by a band in the s from Spain called Barabbas,...

...and this song I got turned onto by the HBO series that was very unsuccessful and only at one season but had great music in it, called Vinyl, and I heard the song on Vinyl and it blew me away and I immediately got on got on Itunes, bought it and put it on a playlist and it's another one of those ones that's better late at night, but it's just got a great vibe to it. It's very, very s well, I'm adding all of these to my playlist after I'm done here. I'm almost done. Footsteps in the dark was the one I was going to say by the EYASI brothers. That's just great song. Never get tired of it. Let him in by wings. Just that song has a really good, just that pumping kind of start to it. Anything Beatles. We Got Beatles, McCartney, anything that that man did, but let him in. Is always a song that when I hear it in the restaurant it sounds really good. Sentimental lady by Bob Welch. Bob Welch was a guy that he was a guitar player for fleetwood Mac before Lindy Buckingham and beer trees, I think, was an album that he had a couple of hits on, including sentimental lady. But then after he left the band he released a solo album in the s and he did his own version of sentimental lady that he came a hit and it's beautiful song, Great Song. Never never get tired of it. Magnet and steel by Walter EAGAN. Other Classic S. Dry the rain by the Beta band. If you're called a movie hi Fi or high fidelity, which on cusack and he says you want to see me sell a record, watch this and he puts thats on and I remember. This was before I even, you know, had a smartphone or anything like that, but I remember writing down what the song was and cheeking it out and it's by a band from Scotland called the Beta band and dry the rain is just phenomenal song. You know, again a late night song but really good. Harvest Moon by Neil Young again just makes the the room so calm and just serene and just, which is always nice, you know, especially when people had a long, hard work week, it's nice to to bring them down with with good music. The whole of the moon by the water boys one of my another favorite bedes Song Vienna by ultrabox, and other favor eighty songs. I think that probably gives you. I know it's enough for another playlist. I like it. Yeah, everybody loves the sunshine. Is the one by row years that I will say. That's a great song, awesome and and a true statement that one does love the sunshine. Yeah, yeah, good deal. Well, I think that's a perfect place to wrap things up, Michael. Thank you so much. Yeah, pleasure likewise. And if people want to come visit Tablah want to learn more about you, where can they go? Well, they can come to Tabala boom eight hundred and twenty six Hinton Avenue in the Belmont neighborhood of Charlottesville. You can also put purchase a book there. If you want to go online and purchase a book or any of our other merch or just see the menu and see what we're about. It's Howvala...

Bein no one wordcom fantastic. All Right, Michael, you're officially off the hook. All Right, thanks for listening. And to wrap up with our joke, which friends should you always take out to dinner? Your taste buds get after it today. People.

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