Good People, Cool Things
Good People, Cool Things

Episode 74 · 1 year ago

74: Creating Your Favorite Board Games with Brian Hersch

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

You may not recognize Brian Hersch’s name, but you’ve most certainly played one (or several) of his board games. He’s the mind behind gems like Taboo, Outburst, and Super Scattergories and has provided countless hours of entertainment for millions of people across the world. 

Brian’s latest game, Boom Again, targets a totally underserved market: Boomers, or people born between 1946 and 1964. Yet, much like Brian’s other games, Boom Again focuses on building up a “social lubricant” for players — in other words, even if you don’t know the answer, you’re still having a fun time participating and interacting with your friends, family, or random strangers you like to play board games with.

Good people cool things as a podcast feature and conversations with entrepreneurs, writers, musicians and other creatives. Get inspired by their stories to do your own cool thing, and here's your host, Joey held. Welcome to good people, cool things. Today's guest you might not know his name, but you certainly know his work. Brian Hirsch is the creator of more than Forty Board Games that have sold over fifty million copies. He's created outburst, supers, categories, taboo, among so many others, and he's at it again with his latest board game, boom again, a pop culture game aimed at boomers that I'm not a boomer, but I had a blast just with a couple of the questions while we're chatting through it. On this episode, Brian Talks about the key to making a successful board game, whether it's art or science, might be a little bit of a combination of both, and why he calls them social lubricators his games, which come in very handy after I don't know about you, but my post pandemic social interactions have not been the smoothest, so I appreciate any kind of social lubricant that I can get to help me through it. So we're chatting all about that good stuff and it's just a blast brand of so many good stories, and I hope that by the end of this episode you're like, I need to create a board game of my own and share it with the world, because I certainly felt inspired after talking with Brian. If you like to get in touch with good people cool things, you can do so via facebook, twitter or in Instagram at GPCT podcast. You can also always shoot me a message, Joey, at good people cool thingscom. I love here in from of you, love chatting with you and if you really want to support the show, head on over to the merch store at good people, cool thingscom shop and we will get you all the goodies that you need so you're cozy and looking fantastic while you're playing one of Brian's board games. And for now let's hop into the conversation. How I have been starting as asking people for their elevator pitch, but I feel like you've got such an established history already that surely people have played at least some of your games. So let's just start with boom again, your latest game. It's a boomer culture trivia game. Where did the idea of this come from, because this is going to lead us into a bunch of different places. Love it. Yeah, let me. Let me give you a little bit of background, because it'll explain how boom again happened. My very first I got into this business because I was a good trivial pursued player and friends of mindset, your creative you could probably make a game and I thought, well, that's interesting, but I was a real estate developer, I was in business, so I did what a business guy does. I went out and did a market research port and had that done and read it, read it again and thought, Gee, you know, I think the big game companies don't really understand what's going on with trivial pursuit. I think there's a business there. We should get in it. Everything that we is in that document was demographically charged and all the learnings that came from it. All these years later I got around to what is now boom again. So four years ago I began to to break through, saying the same demographic target that launched all of my games and that's supported trivial pursuit was currently being ignored and it was this enormous baby boom generation. You know, eighty million people all born, you know, and from nineteen forty five, one thousand nine hundred and sixty four roughly, and they've got all the money in the world. That got time on their hands, the retiring like crazy and nobody selling the many. So I had purposely stayed away from Trivia. One of my learnings was trivia is for a lot of people that's an sat test and if you and if you want to do that, you know there's trivial pursuit, there's hard trivial games. But this time I really relied on the pup pop culture...

...leanings and background of baby boomers and that became the impetus to build this game and to build it the way we built it. Well, that's that's Cypercal so, from the Trivia side of things, because I think I think you're right. If you do make it too hard, then it's not a fun game to play. It's just it's just work. It's an essay tale, like you're saying. So how did you kind of find that balance of like, okay, this is stuff that they know, but it's also not the simplest that everyone would know it, but a large majority of people would. There's a in the world of games. There's a several factors that come into that. Even this one's not a simple answer for you, but I think it'll help to understand it. There are two kinds of players of games, those who are competitive, they want to win, and those that just want to have a good time. If you make something too silly, that the competitive ones aren't happy, if you make something too competitive, than casual gamers aren't necessarily satisfied. So our goal is always how do we balance those two elements? And if you're going to do if you're going to deal with Trivia, if you're going to ask people to remember things, then why not give them the added benefit of additional memory power? And we did that by having everyone play on teams. I may not know the answer, but the but my teammate next to me might know part of it. That stimulates me to think of the rest of it. So that teammate interaction, that's part of social gaming and that's that's my focus, is social gaming. So those were the elements that came together to say this is how we're going to build the game. That's that's such a good distinction to as the social element to it, because I know I've played games where it's really not that much of a social interaction and I quickly find myself wanting to pass something else. Well, it's, I've always said, what I do, because I focus on social interaction Games, party games. What I do is I create lubrication for rusty social skills and and in the end I'm just trying to facilitate the interaction between people on a light note, where we can find some commonality. So, in essence, since we're all, I would say all of our social skills have gotten rusty, are over the past year and a half during the panic. Sure. So, in essence, this is a tool that really everyone needs, or at least one of your games that they can get that practice back with interacting with other people. There is something very nice to feel the fresh tug and pull of something that's old and familiar, like playing games, but it's but it's new again. You're getting the chance to interact like you were young. You are really engaged with people on an easy level and not just ask him, how are you holding up? How are you doing? A just a chance to throw back experience like playing a game. It's such a healthy opportunity, absolutely and within boom again do you have a favorite trivia question? ha ha ha. Well, I my my problem is that I am by nature a smartass and I have never hesitated to let that side of me show through in Games. I think that I never wanted to take things too seriously. I have questions in here that some people are surprised at. They're tongue in cheek. Some of them are a little off color. But keep in mind because this game is broken down differently, I have different favorite questions in different categories. An example of a favorite question something I thought was clever at I'll give you two examples. Actually, I'm here's a question from I believe this was in the news and they and the question is who was...

...older, Elizabeth the second when she became queen or Freddie Mercury when he became queen? Now that I mean it's as the legitimate question. It's a fun piece of business, but it's that little tonality that's supposed to give you a wink and not offend anybody. So that's certainly a piece of how I approach Writing Games. What's the other example? I love that one. The other example, and and let's say this is from things we heard and which is mostly music and and jingles and nathing. But here's an example of how deep this game goes. And Baby boomers know this answer. You've heard. You know who Abbott and Costello are. Yeah, and you've probably heard the WHO's on first comedy routine. Love sharing it with people. So my question for your team is, okay, name the person on third base. I don't know. That's right. And when a team doesn't know and they say I don't know and they get it correct, that's an unusual trick and everyone else goes, oh, that's right. WHO's on first? What's on fence? What's on second? Third Base? I don't know. If you ask me to day of the other positions, I don't know if I could day them. So I'm yeah, I'm not sure. So the goal is to generate that little laugh, that little piece of remembrance that has a spark about it. I mean two for two on that and I'm not even a boomer. So I feel like you asked. Are you answered one of my questions just with that of can people under roughly fifty five years old still enjoy this game? And I would say yes, based on those two yeah, here's the big here's the big finding and we've been thrilled by it. We built a game aimed baby booms and what we're hearing from the from from our players all over the country is I played with my kids. They they beat the hell out of me. I played with my whole family. I mean it's surprising. There's so much of baby boomer experience that you you have had the same experience. If I ask you things, for the things we talked category, what was the name of the Jetson's dog and where did George Walk? least of that I'll lie. I'll defer to my jess. The jets of the Jetson's dog was astro pastor our, yes, and they walked them on the treadmill outside the spaceships. So that's a that's a question you didn't get right, but you're not feeling bad because at the end you sort of slap your forehead and said of course, of course, yes, and now I need to go down to Jetson's rabbit hole. And sometimes it's just about sometimes it's literally just figuring something out. Another example from the game. On the famous Abbey road album cover, beetles are crossing the street. What kind of car can be seen part at the curb just behind them, and this is when everybody can figure out. I mean I want to say Folkswagen Beetle, but that seems to see and that's the answer. It's a volkswagon beetle. That's battastic. So yes, I have harder questions and thoughtful questions, and our goal is to make people saying. There's a lot of singing group saying excellent that, but but there's also those the little sparks, the little things that disappeared somewhere back in your brain and that you forgot were there, and you sort of noodle around a going you know, I got a hunch it might be a volkswagon beetle, and I like it that it takes you back to a time before of before the Internet, being like Oh, I can just...

...easily look that up real quick, like making you think about that and where you you wouldn't have the answer right away back correct when you were doing that. So that's just a another nice element to it, I think. Yet it is as a game designer, my goal is to get people to do something they don't do every day and yet have fun in the process. That's a simple key to it and I think another I know I just kind of criticize the Internet, but I think another twist to this was that you've done a lot of boom zooms with this game, where it's playing it over zoom for people that maybe are in the same room or maybe our and just needed to get away from each other. So they got to set her rooms. But what makes for a successful boom again zoom game? A boom zoom and even more generally, just a good zoom game experience. Yea, was you know, that was a pivot. That was never our plan. We didn't design a game for that purpose. But when everybody, especially our demographic target, baby boomers, they took the pandemic and very seriously and they isolated very seriously and got cut off. And we recognize that they're not gathering with friends to you know, in the traditional way. So we said, but there's Zoomi there zooming with their children, their grandchildren, they're seeing each other, they're having a drink night. You know where they visit and after six weeks, forget six months, after six weeks, I know enough about your children. So we basically said, well, wait to say let's let's let's redesign the game let's just alter the play pattern a little and give everybody rules and and directions on how to play it on zoom and it took off. So it's we SARENDIPITY's a wonderful thing and occasionally we step into it and it and instead of going ankle deep and going why did I step in here, we float alonggoing well, we got this one right, and the boom zooms have been one of them. It's hysterical to watch, you know. Here I'm at my house, my buddies at another house, my wife's friend is that another house. Everyone's in different places and I've got four different people singing, singing badly, at the same time and everyone else is just laughing. It's a perfect experience. I've already got some people in mind that I'm going to need to play this with. So it's it's going to be fantastic. But let's let's hop back to your initial for a into the gaming industry, because do I have this right that you started as a real estate developer, and we're a pretty successful one, before switching into games. Yeah, it was. It was not lineal and it was a very hard thing to do because I was in business with my brother and we were we had a property and maybe this was a serious business and that's what we were trained to do. And suddenly I'm going off in a direction saying I think there's a I think there's an entertainment product, I think there's an opportunity. I've read this report and think that this information is so fascinating we need to follow it. Let me let me share some of what I learned. I wanted to investigate trivial pursuit. I wanted to understand why is this so successful? WHO's buying it? What's going on with this and the game business in general? And I learned the following the baby boom was the biggest generation at that point ever and it grew up play. It relative affluence. It's postwar. It grew up playing clue and risk and monopoly and with this new medium called television that was full of game shows. So we were predisposed to play games. You get to the mid S and we discover sex and run and drugs and rock and...

...roll and we're no longer playing board games. And Parker brothers, Milton Bradley stand on the dock and with a tear in their eye, they wave goodbye. To this generation because they figure you're not coming back. And in fact, my parents generation, they were a card playing generation. During the depression of deck of cards was entertainment for a whole family. A Gi could put in his backpack and take a deck of cards off to war and they remained, you know, card players. But how many companies can exist selling fifty two pieces of paper in a box? It's the same product over and over. The Game Business, the Board Game Business, had no experience selling things to adults. Along comes the the difficulties of the economic downturn in the mid S, and I mean it's awful. Baby boomers are making money. Some of them have bought their first houses, others are paying rents that are too high. The interest rate, the prime interest rate, is over eighteen percent. Nobody's got any money. Everybody is staying home and now it's called cocooning and outcomes trivial pursue. Here's a game that is has a very wide but not very deep knowledge base, sort of like a liberal arts education, and it strikes this enormous generation at just the right moment when they want to stay home. It's quality, it's pricy, it's not just posable and that was something baby boomers expected. I mean that's what they grew up with. And it hit and it went out of control. Trivial pursuit. In one thousand nine hundred and eighty five is reported to have sold over twenty million games in one year. Wow, it was crazy, and so we looked and said, well, this success is not about Trivia. This success is about and entire generation returning to its game playing roots. So I began designing games that had nothing to do with Trivia and as a business guy, I would meet with the you know these. It was hard to get to the first company. They were going to produce it for us and I had to negotiate the contract. The axiom then was big game companies act like gangsters, garage inventors act like process who's it's a match made in heaven. Only I could read a contract and I looked to said no, no, no, and in the end I want to say no to every company at least once. But in the end the contract issues were worked out in what was a fair way. We gave them the rights to produce just the board game. We kept television rights, we kept interactive rights, we kept merchandising rights, it gave us control over our own IP. Ip, by the way, was a term that didn't exist then. So so we had a very unusual relationship with the game companies, and there is nothing that makes it easier than success. When you have a game that succeeds, everybody wants to know what, what else have you got? And that's what started this. That's how I wound up doing business with all of these companies. And was the plan when you were developing this initial game? Did you have visions for all of these other Games too, or did that come after they were like, okay, we need more? It's sort of a combination. Once the you know, once I had a perception of what I thought the game should feel like and I learned what a game should engineer, in other words, what's it going to cost? How's it going to get produced? What do we need in perceived value? How does this get sold at retail? There's a lot to this...

...business and once we got there, once we had a success, it became now I understand the recipe. Let's let's see if I can alter the ingredients. You've kind of been touching on this throughout in terms of having the the social lubricant and not making trivia like to too difficult if it is a trivia based game. But what else goes into the success? What else goes into that recipe? What's the Paprica or the that's going to say slantra, but I feel like that turns a lot of people off. So I you know, the cuman that that is necessary to board game success. It you know, it's I have to tell you I've had games that I thought were great that didn't make it. I've had grains that I thought were okay that made it modestly. I've had games that I knew were great from the minute that they were done. I would tell you that one of the first and most important elements is test plane. And you can't test play with your friends and family. Your friends and family love you, they're impressed. You've done anything and, God bless them, they lie. So we invested in having people come in and sit and test play and we discovered a lot. We found out what wasn't working. We found out, you know, Gede, they read the rules we wrote but after, you know, the first two paragraphs, they got lost. I need to rewrite it, and then the next one got to paragraph six and then they got lost. Needs another rewrite. So we kept testing. In the testing is where we found all of the that secret sauce. This is what works and this is what doesn't. It's why we moved to team play, because teams helped people who were shy, people who were who lacked the same bravado or confidence. It allowed them to be part of a group and that group paradigm is wonderful in the social setting. I don't want to be stupid, but I really don't care if I'm on a team of imbeciles. And and that was you know, it wasn't just me who didn't get it. We all didn't get it. So what are the activities? What can we do that people will find entertaining, will occupy them for a couple of hours on a on a Saturday night? And those elements were the keys. Plus knowing that you don't want to be too hard. You don't want to be repetitive to what another game is. Sure you know they brought out a group, brought out winning not no, they I'm trying to remember the name of it now. PICTIONARY got knocked off. It was the same game, it just it just had a different name. So I wasn't interested in doing that and I didn't feel equipped to do kids games. I didn't think that was a business model that worked and I saw there were plenty of people way more experienced who should be doing it, and so I let them. It's good to know where where you might need to pull some other people in. And is there a super surprising piece of feedback that you've gotten from a player, whether it was for a specific game or just like generally and games that you've tested? Yeah, there's been a few. I had a there was a particular woman and this many years later, I do not recall her name she was. She was a a regular test player and guys on my team would would grieve when they knew she was coming in and they say, why do you keep calling her back? She's so negative, she's so unpleasant, she's such a miserable human being, and I said because when she doesn't have a laundry list of complaints, we've succeeded. So I'd hear her negatives, but by filtering them we learned a lot. Some feedback is useful. I think the game needs to be simple. It's...

...like that canvas that you know when you played Tri of you pursue. Your first thought is, all, I could have made this. You saw Djanga. I could have made this, but the truth is you couldn't. It's like that painting at the museum that's a great big red canvas with a black circle and it's sold for seven million dollars. Always had straighting to say yeah, and you look at that, going really, but a game, if it's simple enough, you look at it and you go I could have done that, okay, but you didn't. There are many times where I have thought that, both about our and games, where yes, like yeah, I wish I had done that's Oh, I think that all the time. It kills me when I see another game that I like slap my head and go, how did that escape me? How did that never occurred? So you've kind of been touching on this throughout. But once you have the game idea and you can you can take a game that you've created, if you want to walk us through this. So how does it go from idea in your head to physical game that we can play? Okay, it it varies often. Sometimes it's ninety percent perspiration, sometimes it's ninety percent inspiration. I and I'll refer you to one game I was I have to drive home in the rain in Los Angeles through a canyon. Traffic was slow and I'm late for a dinner party at my house. I know I'm in trouble. And and on the radio there there the news is talking about Ronald Reagan at it some remembrance of D Day from World War Two, and I thought, gi, I remember a lot about d day. I was there. But you know, we learned history and I know it was General Patton and it and it was panzers and and it was snow. And I had a list and I walked in the House and to deflect my wife from killing me upon my entry, I turned to everybody and said tell me ten things about the battle of the bulge, and they all started yelling out snow, Panzers, Germans, you know, yeah, patent, and they said what are we doing, Brian? I said it's my next game, and that turned out to be outburst. But then came the work. At this point, at all these years later, we recently were reviewing it. We've written somewhere around six thousand outburst topics, because the game is, you know, it's just been around so long and we keep trying to keep it for us. But you got to do the work and then you've got to not fall in the tramp of saying well, if there's a list of ten, that's good enough. Put It in the game. But it has to be some many people knows, something people care about. If I said to you name ten pieces of silverware and you named them, you wouldn't care. It'd be like I just did this exercise, I didn't even enjoy it. So you got to really be selected and periodically put in that answer. That just irritates people. That that in fact, that emotional component to games is incredibly important and no one realizes it. If I gave you, if I said to you ten cars rich people drive and you named all ten that were on the card, that's ten out of ten. That's as high as it can be. But if you did ten out of ten on every single card for an hour, it's a flat line. I want to have you thrilled that you got ten, angry, that you got seven, happy that you've got nine, annoyed that you got for I watch you on an emotional roller coaster. It's way more fun than the merry go round. Yeah, I agree. I'm thinking of the last time I played in it was there's one person in particular that probably was on an actual roller coaster because they were doing and they were God nuts.

It's great and and that's so so factor that in as well. And then at a layer on too that, because you ask how you make the game now, how does the game physically present? What is the value that you're getting for your money? What makes you feel good about the money you spent to have this play experience, and and and that's critical factor. So I'm about to try to find examples and I'll use this one in my game taboo. We could have played that game without the Buzzer, but everybody loves the BUZZER. The buzzer my the first Buzzer when I created the game, the first Buzzer was made from my garage door opener and and what we done covered very quickly, is people were using it to silence their children, to stop an argument with another player. Just pointed out this is but it was. It was a component like a game show. It just felt good and you suddenly felt here's this box full of cards and there's the there's little thing, a little easel to hold the cards, and there's this Buzzer, this this toy attic, this piece of toy that just add so much and you never felt like you got ripped off, because you did. You felt like you got something worth while. That perceived value is critically important, but you can't break the bank getting it. I just need to touch on that taboo buzzer. I we use that on our other podcast, parks and wrecked, for buzzing in on Trivia. It's one player as a taboo and the other one has a Mickey Mass Button that goes Oh boy, I'll have to send you. We actually have one. It was in one of the additions of taboo many years ago. It had a you could switch between sounds. Who that sounds fam one of the one of the sounds was ah AH. So I'll see if I could find it and transcend it. That would be amazing. You've got the BUZZER. You've got it intact. What next? So you've got the Buzzer, you you start writing the material, you do the test plays, you see what's working. People are loving it and now you've got to go at it and you have your biggest decision to your self. Published or do you license it? You know the probabe that lots of people, you know, they can't get into the big game companies. It's a closed society. It's you got to be a pro. It's tough to get in. It's no longer tough to get in when you've already had success. So the question is, how do you how do you sell it? Who Do you sell it to? And you're not really selling it. Your licensing it. You're going to get royalties like it's a record. In the case of taboo, we had built the game, we knew exactly what it was going to cost, we had the title, you know, we already grabbed the copyright in the trademark. We did the things we needed to do before we ever showed it to a company. So I made based on what I knew was in different companies current lines and what their needs were for the next year. I gave it first to Parker brothers, showed it to them, left it with them and that you know they're going to think about a review and call me the like in a week. Well, the next week I have the VP from Milton Bradley at my office and I'm showing them something totally different and I get interrupted by an assistant who says can you come out of here please, which I'm going you're interrupting this, and she says the guy from Parker brothers is on the phone. So I take the colony says, listen, I just want you to now. We just you know, we think this is a negative sort of title and this buzzing thing is just sort of dumb and we just don't think this game's ever going to be a success.

So we're going to pass. So I walk back into the guy from Milton Bradley. I took out my extra prototype the first time. I'm a bust. He said I'll take it. So you know it is. Isn't an issue. Two major players, one season one way, one season another. I was never offended when a company said this doesn't fit our wish list right now. This doesn't meet you know, I a a an important role for us. We're just not interested right now. Never offended that you don't. They're not obligated to taste. If you got to be willing to swing and this and that happens and and frankly I still think a couple of my very best games ever never got license, never got built, never appeared anywhere. They're sitting in the back room amongst all those games that just didn't work. Can we get an inside luck at one of those games? Yeah, sure, I'll tell you that. My favorite all time game that never no one would publish. It was called Car Duccy and it was just this very simple game where you were you everyone was dealt cards and the each card had one letter on it and you have to come up with a word for eat for as many as you could in a row. So if I got a topic card and I read it and it said Zipper, that was the word I needed to communicate to other players. And I looked at my cards in my hand and I put down the letters M T S A pe. See, I laid those down and said metal teeth serving as pants closer. So when you'll Zipper, I get one point for each one of those cards I used. I now I replenish my hand. I like that. It's a great game. I've always looked never been able to sell that game. I tried it out every four or five or six years to somebody. Never never been was sell it. Would you ever release it independently? You know what? I wouldn't, just because the retail environment is so changed now. When I when we started, the big companies were JC penny and sears and and Kmart and toys R us. Those are your big ones. And then who would ever have thought those are those would go away. But it became Walmart and target and toys or us, and the world changed. And then it went from being the big game companies telling the toy buyer here, you're going to take these toys as here and we're going to advertise them to the company saying we're going to take one and we're not going to keep it in inventory. You keep the inventory. Will tell you when, if and when we need more. Plan on having a big inventory, but if we don't take it, it's your problem, not ours. And by the way, we don't like the price. So we wanted for less, so cheapen the game, as these are the rules of the road. You cost engineer to satisfy your major clients. It's a different environment now. It's a tougher environment than it was early on. So I was, I've been in the case of boom again. It is a it is self published. We Are we have released ourselves. It tested over the moon and the reactions told us so that's the way we went. We did not license it, we did it ourselves. Other Games we've done is joint ventures. We've been joint venture partners with a lot of game companies where we share the risk and the reward. But it depends on circumstance. Got It. Got It. And another question I like to ask, because I say I like to put the onus of the work for this podcast on to you, is a question that you, as...

...you were, asked more frequently and I really liked yours. Is it art or is it science? So which is it? Yeah, and well then, and that's like asking it. I'll use one of the references I made earlier. Is it cooking or is it baking? Is it? Is it an art what you're doing the kitchen? Are you just following a recipe? Is it? And and nuance is incredibly important thing. From my standpoint. It is both art and science. There's the science of cost engineering, there's a science of demographics. There's the science and some understanding the market place. There's an art to building a product that people want. There's an art to creating something that's different than what's out there. There's and art to so much of what's required. There's an art to the marketing methodologies, and yet those are also science. So it's it's really a mix between the two I like. I'm thinking of cooking versus baking now, and I would much rather prefer cooking, but I do like the blend of art and science. Yeah, that and that's what we have here. That's what this business has been all this time. Absolutely, and you're almost off the hook. But we always like to wrap up with the top three, and your ample experience with Board Games has introduced you to many different celebrities over the years as well. So for your top three, who are the top three most interesting famous people that you've ever met? Well, two are really famous and one should be more things. I would say that that number one would be Dick Clark. Dick Clark and I met after my first game. We produced a TV show together and that was the start of producing a lot of things together and Dick we became personal friends and he be he was a mentor and a and a partner and and Dick Clark was smarter than almost anybody in entertainment that I've ever met. He knew who went to push and went to not when to be pleasant with even though you were steaming, who was going to be valuable in the future, what mattered and what didn't. Dick was a really smart guy, so he's number one. Number two is this. It speaks to being surprised that there's a depth to someone you never thought would be there, and that would be Marcel Marceau. I I went to France and I very early on went out to motion capture Marcel Marceau. He was already older. I have the chance to stay at his home out outside Paris and he was he could not understand that I'm taking him to do something, that we're going to put a suit on him with little metallic balls in the computers going to watch where those balls go and we will permanently, forever have his motions and someday they may be dressed like a like a grizzly bear, but they'll be his motions. This was beyond his comprehension and he he wanted to put his makeup on before he got in front of the electronic cameras and I had to tell him that it can't see you. He was open to it, he was fascinated by it and while we were while I was at his home, walking around, you know, many acres out in the country. I came across a tomb stone and I said what is this, and it was a tombstone from the cemetery that had been desecrated by the Nazis where his father had been, had been buried, and the Hungarian government sent it to him as a gift. So I'm finding out all this stuff about Marcel Mar so and it turns out he's a legion of Honor winner. I assume that was because of his work, as it's an internationally famous entertainer, and it wasn't. It was...

...because he spent World War Two escorting children up the up the Alps and into Switzerland to freedom hum and suddenly there was a level of depth to Marcel Marceau I've never even heard of. So Marcel would be number two. The third one, the one who I think should be more famous and but he could care less, is a personal friend, Mark Dubavoy. Marc Dubavoy is a Jewish guy from Mexico City, not particularly religious, speaks six languages, plays Flamenco Guitar, plays Jazz Piano, has a Ph d in nuclear physics. Made his fortune as a venture capitalist is a wine connoisseur of such reputes. He writes columns and Connoisseur magazine and is a photographer with works hanging in galleries and museums from Japan to Mexico, in many, many places. In fact, he was ansel Adams asked private pupil, and my friend mark happens to be one of the great joke tellers in the world. So I think mark is one of the most interesting people I will ever know. I love that he's my friend and not doesn't quite fit your most famous, but most interesting for sure. Yeah, I'll allow it. I'll allow it. He's got he's got photography across the world. I will I will count it. Well, awesome, well, Brian, I say this with no surprise because I've had so many hours of entertainment playing your games, but this was a blast. Thank you so much for coming on and chatting all about board games and creating, and I hope you've inspired at least one person to create something fantastic that makes you slap your head and wish you did it too. So know I am and I loved you. Know I joey. Thanks for the vine. I really enjoyed the chance to share this stuff. I agree with you. I'd love for people to do even more and interesting things with gaming. Absolutely, and if people want to pick up a copy of boom again or learn more about you, where can they find you? Boom Againcom and and you'll end and I'm there too, so they can find me, but better to find the game. You'll enjoy it. It's a boom againcom boom again. Love it well, Brian, thank you again for taking the time to chat. And you mentioned joke tellers. As you know, every episode we end with a Corny joke. If you've got one, I'd love to hear it as well. I've got one right, I'll get in so much trouble here. I'M gonna I'm gonna let you leave. Okay, we'll set will set you up for success with this one, because it's it's pretty bad. But what do you call a row of rabbits hopping away? Okay, I'll buye a receding hairline. Oh my God. All Right, now, I'm inspired. I'll give you mine. Yes, two little old guys are sitting and talking and he says that restaurant the other night was fantastic. What was the name of it? And the guy is sitting there. He's older, he's can't be Jesus. What was he says. It's the flower, the flower with the thorns. He says rose. He goes, yeah, Hey, rose, what was the name of the restaurant? Now I'm down with the the lame joke as well as you. That's what I like to hear. Good after it today. People, good people, cool things is produced in Austin, Texas. If you're a fan of this episode, go ahead and hit that follow button. That helps more people here the show. As always, you can send me a message Joey at good people, cool thingscom. Thank you to all of the guests who have been on good people cool things to check out all the old episodes. Be a good people cool thingscom. As always, thank you for listening and have a wonderful day.

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