Good People, Cool Things
Good People, Cool Things

Episode 105 · 8 months ago

105: Mystery Novels and Teaching Writing with John Copenhaver

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

John Copenhaver's latest book The Savage Kind has gotten something just about every author hopes for: a great review from The New York Times. That's just one small part of the writing process, though. 

Beyond two books in the...uh...books, John teaches high school English for dyslexic kids and college courses on writing fiction. He's also a co-host of Mystery Radio Show and writes reviews of queer crime fiction for Lambda Literary. And yes, he's still got multiple books on the way.

We're chatting some of the best ways to market your writing, how to tie a mystery trilogy together, and why teaching students isn't SO different from completing a book.

Good people cool things as a podcast feature and conversations with entrepreneurs, writers, musicians and other creatives. Get inspired by their stories to do your own cool thing, and here's your host, Joey held. Welcome to good people, cool things. Today's guest is John Copenhager, author, writer, teacher, podcast radio show, Co host, book review are all the different things, and we're talking all about his latest book, the savage kind, his focus on certain areas like the Lgbtq community, the FEMME fatale, iconic trope, the S and s historical eras. There's lots of good stuff going down in this episode. We're also talking about some of the tools he uses for outlining and making sure his mystery books are all tied together nicely, because there's a lot, a lot of threads that you like to pull at in these types of books. Additionally, where Chatton about his teaching career and how he incorporates then to his writing and how teaching writing full of a lot of different similarities, which is always a fun time. If you'd like to get in touch with the show, you can reach out via facebook, twitter or instagram at GPCT podcasts, and you can always head over to good people. Cool thingscom pick you up some cozy march, pick up a copy of a book, settle in and lean back during these fantastic conversations like this one with John. For people who aren't familiar with you, can you give us surname in your elevator pitch? Can you also tell us the type of elevator that we're writing on right? So my name is John Copenhavier and I am a historical mystery writer. I've written two books, first of which was dodging and burning and the second, which which is out now as the savage kind. Both are set in S and I'm very interested about LGBTQ plus lives during those time periods. The savage kind is my homage to the then fatal character. I did think of as kind of the coming of age story that she deserves, because I've always been in love with that character. But she always kind of gets a bad rap, and I think I mean went by that, I mean she is always vilified without being understood, and so I decided to take these two teenage girls in nineteen forty eight DC and they bond together and friendship which might become something more, and then they solve a mystery together. And so the the the mystery involves their English teacher and they're both bonded by this English teacher. They both loved her, see her as a kind of ideal, but they also start learning things about themselves and about her that lead them down a dark path, and I really wanted to play around with the idea that, you know, some choices that we may see as a moral you know, particularly a certain point in history, in s coming into the s might be done for reasons that are more complicated than they see him on the surface, which I think can expect to this idea. That's not the tall as they sort of the evil woman character. Maybe the reasons why the tall was doing some of the things she was doing that we could understand and sympathize with. You said how both of your novels are set in this you know, historical sort of realm was. Have you always been like a history, history buff, History Geek, however you want to phrase it, or is that something that you kind of picked up as you, you know, have these life experiences and we're learning about things that happened before us? You know, that's a good question. The truth is, I'm not really a history buff. You know. I think my love, you know, of the time...

...period really comes through the literature and the film from that time period. I am a film buff and been very drawn to the great film noir that came out through the S and early s. They were so innovative and gorgeously filmed and had such a rich sort of exploration of moral dilemmas in a time period that I don't think was fully aware of what it was always exploring or there's always sort of the tension there. So I was very drawn to that. Those just probably what drew me to the S. it's also an interesting sort of time socially for the US. We've just come through the Second World War and which was I wouldn't say full time of openness, but there's a lot more openness and togetherness and accepts acceptance during the war and then we headed the S, which is incredibly socially conservative time period and I wanted to play around with the idea of both women and and and then actually, in the follow up to the savage kind gay men to struggling to, you know, find agency during a really conservative and complex time period. So I think that the it's really the specific time I guess what I'm saying is a specific time period I'm drawn to. I'm not sort of a general history buff and I don't think I would necessary reach, you know, back to some you know, random times of certainly something about the twenty century and the Dynamic Social Dynamics midcentury that I find fascinating and troubling and in times not all that different from our current you know, some things were dealing with currently. So anyways, you we're going through all of that. I was like, the sun's very spot on with what? Right? History is cyclical, right, you know, we didn't assume progresses a straight line up word. It's like the stock market when it's when it's starting to crash. Everyone panics. It's like no, no, look at a long line, like it's happens right, right, exactly. It's fine out, yeah, exactly. One of the things you you left out of your introduction was that the savage kind has gotten a very nice review from the New York Times, which I think for a lot of writers it's like, I mean the equivalent of like a gold star and elementary school, where you're just like yes, I got this. So what was was the reaction? To say that elation. Yeah, I really was. It felt so good. You know, I think another part of that is there just aren't that many lgbtq riders reviewed anywhere. I mean back out a little bit. Reviews or for anyone or hard to come by, and so it is is definitely hard to get the attention of, you know, New York Times or the ultimate place to be reviewed, I guess. And you know, of course that has a positive review is good to right. You know, they say any exposure is good, but I don't know, I definitely from possive exposure. So yeah, no, it was great. It was a great feeling. It was a lovely review and, you know, I felt felt, you know, good to see that the book landed that way and I think continues to, you know, strike people. Is Interesting in any usual and I think that's very satisfying for me. And there's some other reviews from, I guess, a less notable, you know media outlets that have been you know, had a little more space that they could a lot to really, you know having a conversation about the book, and those have been really satisfying to read as well. So I mean it certainly feels good for the exposure. I think that any thoughtful review, though, is...

...very meaningful to me as writer. I also do book reviews. I'm always aware of that from the other side as well. So so at one point they I certainly or at times and wonderful. But, you know, any review that really kind of digs in and tries to understand the book and what I'm after is a cool feeling. Yeah, I think just having like it's still such an odd feeling, I feel like sometimes that people are reading your writing and then to hear like the kind feedback from you're just like wow, that's something's right right. I think that's true. I mean I think a lot of times, like I mean they say, you know, work of works aren't really done until you've got the viewer or the reader sort of completing it. I guess I really do buy into that. Like I don't think it really matters unless someone reads it, you know, just to written it as only part of it, and so when people engage with it in early intelligent and thoughtful way, I find that it's very satisfying and I feel like if that's that's why I'm doing this, right, you know, have any reviews, either from a publication or reader review or anything like that explored a theme or, you know, read into something where you were like Oh, I I wasn't even intending that at all, but that and it like really was just a pleasant surprise to hear that. Yeah, you know, I mean, I'm trying to think of it an example. I think there must have been, at different times, you know, someone seeing something about it. I tend to think I don't know if I had a moment like where someone said, you know, there was this whole motif that you didn't see in it. You know. Well, for that to happen, that would be super cool, because I'm all about the fact that there's like sort of a subconscious thread. It's a it's truly about selfdiscovery writing, I think, and and I've discovered those threads myself during the process of writing, but I have had some sort of point out something before. I would love for that to happen. That would be super exciting because then it's like you're you know, you're unintentionally likes, had designed something that, you know, I think, is speaking to people and I do believe people should bring their interpretations to something, as long as they're engaging with it, you know, deeply and not the sort of writing across the surface of it and then forming opinion. So I mean I think that, yeah, I would love so I don't I wish I had good story at all, but maybe I will. And if anyone wants to try dissected, I sacked away. I'm an English teacher too, so Oh, loud, loud, yes, and well, we'll touch on that along it too, because I think that that definitely adds an interesting elements. I think this is a little bit of an a side, but I had recently seen a clip like on the topic of kind of, you know, dissecting and breaking down songs. I think it was the Kelly Clarkson show, I think that's what it's called, just the Clxi, and she's interviewing Dave grol from the food fighters and was talking about the song learned to fly and she was like, you know, it's it's so like I've always loved that song. It's about, you know, my achieving your dreams, like reaching to the sky and, you know, like all these things that you can accomplish. And she's like what were you thinking when you were writing that song? and Dave girls like, I mean I was just like I would be cool to be a pilot and like actually fly, like there wasn't like a metaphor anything, and she was just like just like what he's like. But that's the cool thing about music. It's like that's what you take from it, and I think that's the same thing about novels in like reading and writing. Like not everyone's going to interpret things the same way, and that's so cool to me. Yeah, I think that's that's that's why, you know, when you can crash something that has some openness to interpretation or vites the reader, you know, interpret in some way, I think that could be very powerful because then the reader, listener of your you know...

...whatever, is participating in a think I mean not everything can be that way and that's fine too, but I think certainly fiction that functions that way can certainly be pretty, pretty powerful. And I think back to that idea of it's not completed until the reader serve completed the story. You know, it's a quite yeah. Now the savage kind is your second novel, Yes, and it I believe you dropped that there's a follow up. So you've got a third book and a way I have too. Well, so, as savage kind is first and trilogy about the same to female characters. Who will go next? When we sent in nineteen fifty four, in the last one, nine hundred and sixty three. So kind of span the s and each one has a mystery and there's threads from the first one woven through all of them. But I had to, before I published, as have hush, kind of sit down and figure all this out because because it's a lot of it's a lot of threads and as amster writer, you're dealing with lots of different, you know, plot lines and clues and I really wanted to know where all this was headed. So I did right up and have outlines for the two books that followed this enough, started the second one because, you know, I just felt like I could stand the first to the world without knowing about where everything's going. Um, I don't. That doesn't mean there won't be surprises, you know, store for me as I write them, but I did feel like I had to do that. So, yeah, I got some work to do too now there. I guess it's kind of a two part question. I one with your second novel. What did you learn from the first novel that you were like Oh, I can apply to this and make maybe you know an element that was very difficult the first time, try and make that a little easier. And then for the outlining, do you use any kind of like software for it? Are you like a you know, a beautiful mind, like big chalkboard and you've got like all kinds of equations and arrows pointing out and maybe some yarn attaching things? How does that look like for you? Well, I think that as I continue to grow as a writer, I do I think planning more in advanced is something that I think I'm leaning to doing. Dodging and burning I kind of wandered into and then figure it out. I do tend to let care. I do want the characters to Lee, not the plot. So I don't want to I don't want to make that mistake of having the plot drive the characters, because I think we read mainly for character. So you know. But I did that to a great degree with dodging a burning and I just got a tangle and I think I rewrote the first hundred pages of diet dodging and burning like fifty times. If else line feels like I'm sure it wasn't entire really, you know, fifty times, but it felt like that and which is exhausting. And you know, I think I learned some of that through the savage con but I mean, honestly, I don't think I'll learn probably listen enough, because I did a lot of rewriting of this one and I've finked it was third person initially and now I shifted it to too first person narrators. So, you know, I think certainly maybe what I'm learning is patients. You know, I have to say, having outlined the one that I'm working on now, it's kind of relief. I'm now I know where the story is headed and that feels good and so I'm not so sure that I won't become more of an outliner of anything. A lot of mystery rutters do end up going down that path, but not all of them, but any means. But in mine our legitimate mystery is they're not thrillers. By that I mean there is a there is there are clues, there's a...

...crime and you know, there's the potential for the reader to solve it if they're paying a close attention. It's not a thriller where it's a sort of more about moving forward, an action and tension. This is much more of a you know, a true puzzle mystery. Both of them are and I going to keep that going because I really enjoy that. But I don't want that, that sort of highly like plotted structure to impinge upon on a character development, which I still think it's the chief thing that needs to lead any book. So the other question you asked me was about what I use for outlining. Well, the truth is I don't. I mean my outlines are really just in a like a word document. But what I do use is program called scrivener and Scribner is amazing, big works, particularly how it allows you to shift around scenes and visualize and contain all your research, and one program I think I love it. I write in it and you know I eventually I may outline initially and that I plug that outline into Scriptner so I have it all. They're ready and ready for me to do and then if I see like, Oh, I think the scene needs to be in a different place, I can easily shift it around visually. So I definitely I recommend all the time to folks. I think you have to be willing to give up your word, your attachment to word the which I have. I kind of hate word. I I love working Google docs as a teacher and I work in Scribner as a writer, but of course all publishing industry wants everything out word, so it all has to be downloadable in that form. It's at all of that form. So Anyway, I wish I'd kind of one of those things where I like was pulling strings and doing all that, but that would just be a big mess. I'm not a messy guy. Can't do that. I would help me at all. I just get lost in that. It would be more like art than it would be anything useful. I know I always feel that way when I see like a big post it board or something, where I'm like this looks so impressive and if it works for you, more power to you, but it would. It would importantly for me, of course. One of the other elements that I think some writers really enjoy and others completely hay it is the marketing side of things, because writing the book only half the battle, as or it's some pople's they probably ten percent of the battle, and then ninety percent is is getting people to read it. So obviously coming on great podcast like this is one way. How else have you? Have you found marketing your work or where else have you found success with marketing your work? And maybe areas where you're like, I thought this was going to be good and it ended up not being so good. Yeah, so, I mean it's it's talk about a puzzle, mystery. Yeah, how is the next book? Actually it's figure I got God, market your book without a solution. I couldn't give you a solution. So I could give you lots of clues. It sound a lot of red herrings. I don't. I mean I think that I do feel strongly that if you're going to go through all the trouble and the burn and toil, you know, of writing a book and then just not attempt to market it, you're really selling yourself short. So I definitely to get behind it as an author and I think more than ever, and this is some what understandable, people expect you to. They don't just want the book, they want, you know, the sort of a bit of the personality and the context behind the book, and so I think going on things like podcasts or just, you know, any sort of online interview, was instagram or something like that, and it can be really great places to market and talk about you your book, I also enjoy conversations about you know, I...

...enjoy having conversations about the book. I don't enjoy reading from it because I feel like readings don't capture what a novel's doing very well, you know. Or poetry can be really performative of powerful. It's hard to like read a five minute scene from the savage kind and feel like you're really offering folks much and I'm just not. That's not my skill set really. I have to practice a lot. So I mean, I think that that, you know, and I'm not so sure that actually makes people pick up the book. I think people are more interested in the context, the how, the what the book might say about Culture Society today, how it may be, is giving them some some new like perspective on something. I think that's important in just so a little reading doesn't always do that. You get a flavor for the voices, but that's about it. So I tend to be someone that wants to like do interviews and that sorts of things. Certainly getting your book reviewed is really helpful. It's hard, though, and a lot of the same people who are reviewing and the people who are writing and trying to publish their own books, like I'm that way, and so we and they have fupped on day job. So you know, it's hard. It's hard to find reviewers. I think one thing I would say often is, you know, being trying to see how you can participate more does in the community in any sort of way is a great way of marketing yourself, but doing it in a way it's also helping other people. I think that can be really powerful and meaningful and not so like, you know, like you have to show up and try to force your book on someone, because that's never a good feeling and people are really like it. It doesn't really work very well either. I think that could tell when they're people are just bit have the ulterior motive. Yeah, it's not good. It's not good, and so I think you know. But in terms of just I think the thing that it's still puzzles me is like the degree that social media actually sells books and not. I feel like I just there's a big question mark in my head over it. I think if you can blunderbuss somehow, you have a great marketing team and a lot of money and it's just like every time you have social media, you see a book, you get that book cover and then I think that's probably working. But I think it's almost going to be so intense that that that's the level it's getting. And I do I've see other authors who have they you know, I pegass my publishers is smaller, so they don't have a huge mountain of money to put behind marketing. They're very resourceful, connected and they really love pairing with the author and we're very supportive of me. You know, even from the cover. I got to I got to sort of participate in making and not making it, but rather getting my input on the cover, and I just got a review from someone instagram. They're like, oh my gosh, I cover that really fits the contents. I was like yes, so, you know, I think. I think, but the thing in like cases, like you just the money and the manpower behind marketing just get the book has to be everywhere, and it was kind of night, I mean felt like the pain. It was particularly weird time to market a book because even having it bookstores wasn't doing tons of good. It's like it had to be like, you know, on social media as well and a really sort of dominant way. So I think that set your expectations is always a good idea and then do as much as you can, but not so much that, you know, you fall apart. So I don't know. There's no secret solution to it and I don't, you know, they some people say keep a newsletter, but can you? You got to be willing to write it and write it, you know,...

...consistently, and have enough to put in it doesn't seem like you're just making stuff up. So I don't I mean it's just like, who knows? Who knows? Yeah, I think the well to the newsletter point, I I have one outside of my writing but then also one, and the writing one is very it's actually like tied to this podcast and it's very sporadic, I would say, right and when it goes out. But I do kind of like it from an experimental point of like what, you know, trying different, different things, and sometimes it's just like hey, here's like three quick like you can read this in a minute type of thing, and then sometimes we'll try a longer one. It's always interesting to see, you know, what what people respond to and obviously, like every reader is going to be different, but that's I kind of like it as a playground but yeah, the consistency element of it is very difficult to have. For sure. Yeahs you're doing a minor publication every month. It's like well, I'm a going to right do the writing that. So I mean it's it's but I think they do. I think they are, you know, can be powerful ways of getting out there and you know, I think people who sign up for them are committed to following you and I think that. I know, I think it's just do the degree that you can do it. Do it, yeah, and if you have fun doing it, by all means, and then it's definitely worth doing. And I will say I'm not someone who finds promoting my book a horrible drudgery like it sometimes it's really can be fun and and then sometimes they can be drudgery, but it's you know, I think they're definitely writers out there. Like I don't want to, you know, I don't even like to post on I'm like, well, I got to. Yeah, yeah, I think the the being dominant and everywhere sort of side of that is really important because I know, like any time I've posted about my book, at least one person is like, Oh, I didn't know you wrote a book, and I'm like, well, I've shared this like forty times right last month. But, like, you just never know when people are going to be, you know, online at that moment or or finally reading something that you may be sent like a month ago. And so I, like you, you do have to plow there and even if it makes you super uncomfortable, like you gotta go far. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it sometimes I get comments like, you know, I'm like well, I mean, I know it is, it is a little uncomfortable, but I can come on social media. It's all about people advertising their lives, you know. So it's like I can't feel bad about hey, here's my book, right. I don't move anyone getting on there and doing whatever they want to do to tell the world about what they're up to, especially if they've done something meaningful like write a book or whatever, you know, make an album or whatever. You know, it's like that feels like really legitimate use of social media versus, you know, here's my three year old's birthday party, and that's great for the people who know, but then it's a weird you know, this is a weird space. Social media is said, I don't think there should be any very little shame about writing a book on social media. Now you also host the house of mystery. Yeah, radio show. Oh, host als, cohost, Co says, I can't give you all the credit, but please don't, because Alan machines amazing. He's a machine. Shout out to Alice well. But obviously writing for a novel a little different than writing for radio. So what does that sort of approach and like? What is planning for a show look like? Well, for me, very little, honestly, because I mean, I'll really is a show runner and essentially it's our it's an interview. It's really an interview podcast and more than a show, but it's also on the radio as well. But it's just finding authors who we think are going to make or or filmmakers who we think we're going to make interesting, you know,...

...interviewees. And and he does a real sort of why swoth? I'm not the only cohost. I say is my specialty is crime fiction, lgbtq fiction. You know, that's who I usually am sort of saying hey out, what about such as such writer to come on and and, but he is just very omnivorous in his interests. So there's like horror there Scifi. He's a true crime we eyes. Is this true crime? And then all sorts of other things. And so I think that it's just about showing up and having interesting questions and engaging the individual and letting them you know, and amplifying their book and getting the, you know, the world out to know about what they're up to. It's really it's really about promoting authors and and he one thing that alice sort of mission for the podcast less radio show is is that he doesn't want to just do big name authors. He really wants it to be a mixture. He doesn't want to do just one thing. He wants it to be a real mixture, and so I think that that feels good. You know, we're not just amplifying the already already amplified, which is I don't know if you noticed this, but the book world becomes they they feels like some of they choose like ten books to just like let the whole world know about, and the rest of us are trying to like, Hey, waiting, I'm here, and so I think that, you know, I like that. That's part of the mission of the radio show. And then also just lgbtq. I mean I'm passionate about that and talk about not enough amplification in the industry, just being public stuffing published, much less being promoted. So love it, love it. And because all of this is not enough, you also are a teacher. Yeah, that's that one of the one of the questions I always like to ask. I say it's because it's less work for me, you know, sourcing. The question for who is a question you wish you were asked more frequently, and I really like yours of how does your teaching profession and form and inspire what you're right? Well, what's so interesting is that I think there's a lot of connections between the two, but sometimes they're either seen like as things getting in the way of each other or argus, maybe in competition with each other. But you know, I think teaching, being a teacher, at least being a good teacher, I think, means you have to be as someone a study of human psychology. In this case, you know, since I teach high school and college age kids, it's sort of the teenager to there, you know, you know the younger adult phase like well, you know, who are these people as they're trying to find out who they are, you know, hence I tend to fall into things that have somewhat of a character arc or a coming of age art to the to the stories, because that it's been a lot of time. So I think you know the you know my what I'm getting out of teaching and then what I'm writing about or always in dialog. And I think in some ways, you know, their aim isn't all that different. You know, you write a story to try to convey something. Hopefully you're doing it in a way that allows the reader to, you know, be involved and think about it. You're not just sort of being didactic and telling them what to think, is what I mean. And he teachings a lot of the same way. Your job isn't necessarily just a shoot a bunch of information at students, but to teach them how to think about that information and get them interested in it and want to think about it. And so I really think those two things are aligned and what I do as a as a writer and teacher are not all that different. Now,...

...you know, teaching pays a little bit more than writing, not a lot, a bit more, but a little bit. So you know, I end up, I knew constantly look to find more balance between my teaching and my writing instead of time to squeeze the writing in around the edges as much as I do right now and of course, in the summer months. But I think I would like to a little more daily balance around those two things. But it's something to work towards. But I don't I don't necessarily think that they are all at different in some respects. You're almost off the hook. Care we've got one more question for you and I'll even let you. I sort of like a poor way to tide it, sort of like a MSTER. You can choose your own path here. I it's ways to be a good member of the writing community or you could do your top three weights to kind of ostracize yourself from the right well, I'll you know, I think well, to be a good member of the writing community, I think that the first thing comes to my mind is to participate, to get out there and either online communities or go to conference. As I have to say, I've gotten so much out of going to conferences now at costs to do that. I get that not everyone can afford to do that, but if you can, or you allocate some of you know, your advance to doing something like that. I think it's certainly worthwhile. I think, you know, becoming a part of the community. You also find support structures there, because writers need them, you know, and and then you're by doing that you're also, I think, you know, you will find opportunities to help people up and people then reach down to help you up, and that just it's a nice it's a nice feeling and I think more and more of allised writers feel that they're in it together, not that they're competing. I think another thing to do is to realize that, and this probably is kind of on the same the same realm of things, but participate in like reviewing each other. Participate in in, you know, if you buy a stack of books at a conference, you know, posted online, show what you're reading, that kind of thing. I think is nice to serve. Spread the word. Spread the word, I guess. And I think the last one, which I think is the flip side of maybe all the three that are would not do, is, you know, I would really go. I would go into the world assuming, especially in a social media space, assuming positive intent come with us, sort of us what I'm learning. I love these terms scout mindset, where you're kind of inquiring about why someone might share about, you know, a troubling opinion. Having a twitter battle. I don't know if it achieves a lot anymore. Maybe there's a point and sometimes we do need a sort of you know, let people know that they're thinking is wrong. But I think in the garating community more and more I feel like we need to sort of open the door for conversations. So going at someone on twitter is I think I would prefer it to be more about so why do you think that a question exploration. You know, I think the thing not to do is just to start going at people, even if you disagree with even if you're pretty sure they're wrong. I think you know, not that I'm saying you shouldn't think that they're wrong, I'm just saying that maybe that's not the way forward. And so I see that in the communities a lot things blow up all of a sudden and you're like, oh, they're all these people and they're almost a lot of ways they're there may not understand or they may be making mistakes. They may be, you know, some they maybe sort of showing their homophobia or their latent racism and they need to learn. You know, something about that. But just like calling them out, bringing them down is ultimately I feel like they're just getting more...

...entrenched in their point of view instead of opening collecting. I think that's true in the writing community as it is in the world, and so I would like to see more conversations and the less sort of expect twitter explosions. Yeah, I think it's always entertaining to me to to see when one, you know, one side might go off on the like a you know, a twitter threat or something. Someone comments and then someone else replies like Oh, that's so stupid, like you're you know, this is this is the correct way, and then that the first person is like Oh, like out of it. Know that, like thanks, and that it like becomes like a wholesome moment right out of it, and I it's yeah, it's definitely not as common as it probably should be, but every time I see that I'm like, I was expecting that's to go another way. So I'm glad. I'm glad to see it. Always feel like you know, when you're you're trying to have a conversation with someone that you're pretty sure they're thinking is off. It's better to give them the opportunity to correct it or be open to hearing your side of it, and I think that's that the language we more and more, I thought, we need to take, and I mean this comes from also I as a teacher. I do a lot of the work and schools and around education, talking to parents about you know, that kind of thing, and I just, you know, feel more and more that the creating openness is the aim more than being right in a certain space, and I think then you can have like exchange that might change someone, which is all right, fantastic. Will John. Thank you so much for hopping on the PODCAST. This was a delight. And if people want to learn more about you, check out your books. Where can they find you? You can certainly find me of my website, which is www john coping vercom, and or simply like it. Yeah, varies, you can't. Yeah, get all you can find me on facebook, twitter and Instagram as well. Most of their you just search my name and find me, but my instagram name is John Cope seventy four. So I am out there. I am out there. I like that. Love it. Well, the savage kind out now we got more coming up. We got the scoop on here. We got more coming up, John. Thank you again. This is blast. Thank you so much for having me, Joey. Of course we got to end with a Corny joke, as we always do. You know, a friend of mine just told me, what don't you write a book and said of doing all this stupid word play that you always do, and I said, you know what, that's a novel idea. Fuck it. After it. Today people, good people, cool things is produced in Austin, Texas. If you were a fan of this episode, go ahead and hit that follow button. That helps more people here the show. You can send me a message. Joey had good people, cool thingscom. Thank you to all of the guests who have been on. Good people cool things. Check out all the old episodes and good people cool thingscom. As always, thank you for listening and I have a wonderful day.

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