Good People, Cool Things
Good People, Cool Things

Episode 76 · 1 year ago

76: How to Travel the World (The Smart Way) with Karen Gershowitz


It seemed like it might never happen, but travel is slowly inching its way back into our lives. However, trying to fit in a trip into a busy career and with plenty of responsibility at home can seem like a daunting task. Can it possibly be done?

Of course it can — that would be a pretty boring podcast episode if I said it couldn’t. Karen Gershowitz is the author of Travel Mania: Stories of Wanderlust and she’s sharing the travel tips and tricks that have gotten her to 90 countries across the world, all while balancing a busy career. In fact, she even got promoted after taking a month off to go to Alaska. Now that’s a fabulous perk.

Good people cool things as a podcast feature and conversations with entrepreneurs, writers, musicians and other creatives. Get inspired by their stories to do your own cool thing, and here's your host, Joey held. Welcome to good people, cool things. Today's guest is Karen Gershawitz, author of the Book Travel Mania, Stories of Wander Lust. There's a hundred ninety seven countries in the world. Karen's been to ninety of them, which is phenomenal. That's so fantastic. She's got plenty more on her list, so we're talking about the ones that she has yet to get to, as well as some of her favorite spots and all of her great stories. It's a travel book, memoir, all that good stuff wrapped up into one. Talking about how, if you're starting a new job, maybe you're looking during the pandemic, you're trying to maybe find no career opportunity or, you know, maybe you got laid off and are looking for a fresh start, how you can make sure you're still getting good vocation benefits out of that, how you can talk with your employer and negotiate some better travel options, or even if you're at your job for a while, how you can work your vocation days to your advantage and make sure that when you're leaving, it leaven everyone in good hands so that you can enjoy traveling without stressing about people back home saying, Hey, I don't I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing while you're going. I don't know why. Your Co workers might sound like a creaky old wardrobe, but hey, sometimes it happened and you don't want them to feel ill prepared for your trip out there. CARE's also sharing her top tips for traveling, whether you're new or experience. I've been to I don't know a fifth of the countries the KARROT has been to. So some, but still much fewer than she has, and a lot of these tips are super helpful for men. I'm going to start adopting some of them. So it's wonderful to hear, even if you're experienced traveler. Lots of good he's in this episode. If you'd like to get in touch with good people cool things, you can reach out on facebook, twitter or Instagram at GPCT podcast while you're at it. I don't know what to good people. Cool thingscom shop, pick up a hoodie, a hat, shirt wall are all that good stuff. You can rock it on your next trip or have a waiting for you when you come back home, because what I want to do when I get back home from a trip is just kind of curl up, maybe watch a little TV, maybe just head to bed and dream about all the fun stuff that I did. And we don't have to be dreaming because we've got lots of fun stuff in this conversation with Karen. For people who don't know who you are, can you give us your elevator pitch and can you also tell us the type of elevator that we're riding on? Well, we're writing in the elevator in my apartment building, which is in Midtab Manhattan, actually a block from Lincoln Center, and I this way to describe it is I am a travel fanatic. I have arranged my whole life so that I could travel. I changed careers, I've changed friends, lovers, you name it. I will do anything so that I can travel and fortunately I managed to get a career that allowed me to travel a lot for business. So, in addition to traveling for business, I also got a Zilly and frequent flyer miles and that helped me to really explore to the low. So I've been to ninety countries at this point. Is Your plan to visit all? What do we have to a hundred, ninety seven? It's something like that. I don't think I'll get to all of them, but but I will get to another twenty or twenty five, for sure. Fantastic. What what are a couple places that are on your list that you haven't been too? I've never been to the South Pacific and I would really like to go to some of the islands in the South Pacific, not Taki so much, but the Cook Islands and some of the more remote islands there. And while I'm in the area, I would like to go to Papua New Guinea, which I have also not been... I think I've been to every country in South America except for French Guiana, and I would like to go. The other one that's very high on my list at the moment as Malda. Never been to Malta and people have said that it's just wonderful. So so those are those are high and then there's a lot of places. I want to go back to ohen and the other one is I want to go to Ghana. Really want to go Goda. It's a wonderful list. I have been to none of those, so I can't I it's but have also heard had, especially with multive, heard really good thing. Yeah, it's also also high on my list and we're going to go all the way back now. The first place you ever traveled to? Where was it? Well, when I was about six, I think, my family went up to vacation in Canada and that was the first time I had ever heard another language being spoken by the general population and it was kind of a shocker to me. It was like wait a second, you know, what are they doing here? But but I like to say that I traveled in Thea. Grew up in Manhattan and my mother always want to travel and when she was growing up it was not exactly the right time to be traveling. It was right before the Second World War and so going to Europe, you know, and she's Jewish, it would not have been a very good idea. But she was determined and so we traveled in New York City, and by that I mean at even then there were restaurants of every possible description in New York City and she was willing to try anything. You know, I joke about the fact that that I was probably the only seven year old that was a proficient sh with chopsticks and loved Sushi. You know. Anyhow, she got me fascinated in all of this and then I wanted to go see it for myself and then I took off by myself at age seventeen and moved to Europe. That's so wonderful. I also my parents took me traveling at a very young age and I really do think it it shaped who I am as a person and I think it's so cool when parents are able to do that and I'm very I'm very thankful for it. So I'm glad that you also very early on. I don't think I was adopting Sushi by by age six, but very impressive. I mean we tried everything. I can't think of a cuisine we didn't and even then, if you really looked, you know, you could find some very unusual cuisines, because New York really has been, you know, has so many different nationalities that if you were willing to go looking, you could find almost anything. So I tried Indian food and, you know, tie food at a really young yeah, I think that's a really cool part of really visiting anywhere, but New York, especially within the states, is is such a melting pot, for lack of a better phrase, of just people that you can even if you're not looking for something, you might just stumble upon, you know, like a small thie restaurant or something. We're like Hey, I'm gonna go check this out, and it's it's great. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. It's one of the things that I like best about New York is that it is such a diversity that you can find anything and you know, you want to go into a grocery store that has foods that you've never seen before, easy to do that around here, very easy to do that, and it's just a you know. Plus, there our performances, when it isn't Covid, that you can go to. You know just from all over the globe. If they're going to come anywhere in the US, they will be in New York. And, you know, theater and dance and music, you name it. I've been all over the world and it's still one of my favorite places, and for all the reasons I just said. Do you...

...have a favorite show that you've seen? Oh, there's no such thing as a favorite. I always say that my favorite show is the next one I'm going to. I like that. I like that you've been to ninety countries and it sounds like you know they're all all great experiences. They've all opened up your eyes and in some way. But of course not every trip goes smoothly. So I want to hear about one of your worst travel experiences. Well, I can think of several. I'm going to give you a business trip, but that did not go well. Okay, very early on in my career I was working for an air freight company and my it was international as well as domestic, and we sent a lot of freight over to Europe, but they couldn't figure out why they couldn't get freight to come back from Europe to the US, and so I was sent over, because I was a marketing strategist and marketing researcher, to see if I could figure out why. Within ten minutes I had figured it out and I was young. I was a female in an industry that's totally male and I wasn't exactly politic about it, to say though, to say the least. I just kind of Said you do what anyhow, and it was in Frankfort which is not the most wonderful of cities. I like Germany. Frankfort I usually described as being the new work of Germany, of Germany, and you know I mean next to this gorgeous hotel was, you know, three sex stores and anyhow, so they they got back at me. We went out to dinner to beer garden and at the time I was vegetarian. I'm not now, but I was then, and everybody else got served this huge plate of gorgeous food and then ceremoniously they brought out to great fanfare and everybody, I swear, in the entire restaurant, was looking to see what it was and placed the this huge plate in front of me and take off this dome and it's too fried eggs, and the entire trip was like that, and then when I had to go back it didn't get any better. So it's not one of my favorite studies I had. Since I did not have to go there ever again for business, it's somewhere that I avoid. There's plenty of other places to yeah, yeah, and then other places that I really liked when I first went, and I'll give you an example. I've been to Bali several times. The first time I went was in the late s and it was still very unspoiled, and then I went again in the mid S and it was beginning to get a little bit touristy. And then I went again two thousand and ten, maybe not two thousand and two thousand and ten, and it was completely overrun by the Australians. And even in remote corners it used to be that there was one area that all the Australians went to. Well, now the entire island is taken over by the by the Osse's, and I love Assi's, but they destroyed the culture, you know, or they didn't destroy it, but they just made it. It's very commercial now. It doesn't have the same feeling it had when I first went there and because of that there are certain places that I just don't want to go back to. Now. You've recently written the Book Travel Mania, stories of wander last why did you decide now is the time for a book? Well, I've been writing for a while. I've been I've been writing my whole life and I've been keeping a travel journal my whole life. Now people often saying me, so how do you remember all of this? Well, because I've been keeping...

...a travel journal. That was something else that my mother really got me started doing as a child and I just kept it up and in one thousand nine hundred and ninety one I took a year trip around the US and I wrote a book about it and I got an agent and with a very good literary agency, and then the person who is my agent left the agency and turn me over to another agent who hated travel books. And it had taken me a long time to get the agent and a lot of work and I was working very hard and traveling a lot for business and I just gave up the whole thing and I started to slow down in my career to get ready to retire about five years ago and I thought, well, now's the time to really start getting serious about it, and so I started writing different stories and putting it together differently and it was more than I had the time to do it now than anything else. As far as what people can expect backed within it should should people who are like avad travelers read it? Is it people that have never traveled before? Is that all the above? Anyone that just wants to see something else? All of the above. The great stories people who've read it and not necessarily. People I know have really loved it and it's I describe it as a memoir told through travel stories, and my goal is to get people to go out and adventure and go see the world. Although people who are armchair travelers, I have someone I know who hates to travel and he describes it as this is the best trip I've ever taken any and I didn't have to get off my couch. So it's for it's for everybody. They're just fun stories, but they also tell a lot about what it takes to do it and how creative you have to be, particularly if you're in a in a career, it's not so easy to find the time and the and the ability to do it and you have to be really creative. And when I was young I had no money, but I figured out ways to to make it happen because I was so passionate about it. And so it's a little bit of all of the above. Let's hop into a couple of those ways, because I think that is a deterrent for people for traveling a lot of time as they you know, they can't take the vacation time or there's just so much going on at work. They feel like off. I you know, if I leave for a week and a half like that's going to that's going to lead the problems down the line. So let's say I have I will. Okay, let's start that. I've recently. I'm interviewing for a new job. I'm not to my current employer. Don't get don't get worried, but I if I were interviewing for a new job, I how can I kind of like we've maybe a little extra vocation time or like some kind of perk into the into the mix. There negotiating for it. But don't negotiate until you have settled on your salary. That's rule number one. Is Don't talk about vacations until you figured out how much they're going to pay it. I did that with several jobs and it's less difficult than you would imagine, because one of the things that you can do. With one of my employers, he said, well, you know, we're not allowed to give more than two weeks, and I said, and who checks up on this? And he looked at me like, oh my God, she really is Gutsie and and he said, well, know what he said, but they'll notice. I said, I'll tell you what, let's split it up. I'll never take more than two weeks vacation at one time, but if I split it up, and we agreed that, as long as I only took one two weeks vacation a year and took the rest of...

...the time as long weekends or you know what, what I also often do is if there's a threeday weekend, I'll take off the next four days so that you actually end up with a nine day vacation for for vacation days. And Yeah, and between all of that it's easy to it's less difficult than you'd imagine. You know, if they really want you, they'll they'll be accommodating and and you can, you know, trade off for other things. I was like, I will work an extra you know, but before I go I will work, you know, a few extra hours every single day if I have to, to make sure that nothing is left undone or that nobody's prepared before I leave. And you have to be pretty clear that you're going to leave things in really good shape, which means letting the other people know that you're going to be gone, leaving written instructions, not verbal ones, written ones so that there's a document that they can go back to and say, Oh, this is what we're supposed to do if that happens. The other thing is, if you're going into a new job, negotiate for time off before you start the new job. I've I've had friends who go from one job right into the next one and don't take off time in between, and to me that's a golden opportunity to travel because you don't have to worry about what you're leaving behind and you don't have anything new yet that you that you're jumping into. So it's a really relaxing time to go away and, you know, be able to just relax and explore and not worry about all of that. Now, admittedly, if you've got a family and you've got bills and all the rest of it, it becomes more difficult, but you don't have to go to Japan, you know, travel around locally, you know for a week. Just take some time off, even if it isn't very long, and and give yourself the head space to get ready for the next job and give yourself an opportunity to go do some explorer yeah, I think that's a very good point of like, they may ask a can you come in a week or two from now? And you can say, like, you know, no, I'd like I'd like some more time off. And and I don't think you have to get like super I mean if they press for it, maybe, but as an example, I had a new job, I mean this is like twelve years ago now, where I was moving from California to Texas to take this job and accepted it on a Friday and they were like great, can you start on Monday? And I was like, I know, even if I was in the same city, no, but definitely not moving halfway across the country right and and they were they were accepting of that. They're like okay, yeah, well, that makes sense. Like well, we'll push it back, and that was tremendously helpful and, like you said, helps you get in the headspace. Definitely reduces a lot of stress. And let me get to kind of explore La for the last time before I was I was moving out of there. Absolutely, and I think a lot of people fears what holds them back and the thing that I've discovered in my career, and maybe I'm very unusual, but I don't think so. Asking for things and being assertive about it not coggressive and not horrible about it, which some people are, but being just a sertive about it gets people's attention in a positive way, not a negative way. It's like this is somebody who knows what they want and is willing to ask for it, and they see that as playing out in the job that...'re in as well as in your own personal life, and that's a good characteristic, not a bad. What would be a bad way to go about it? Like, if people aren't is I as good at towing the line between assertive and kind of aggressive? Like what would be an example of a bad way to do that? Well, I can't come here unless you give me two weeks. I like that, I like that's but don't do that. Don't do that, don't do that. That would be bad. That would be bad. What a good way would be would be to say something like you know, I would much as I understand that you really would love to have me come right now. I just need a break and I'm going to come in much more refreshed and much more ready to hit the ground running if I have some time off before I start. Boom easy. If someone is new to travel, will go from beyond business. Maybe they're just traveling for Leiser. Maybe they are traveling for business but they're not as experienced. They're traveling. What are some of your favorite either tips or things that you always have to bring on a trip with you? Well, I'll do both. I'll give me the I'll give you the tip. Most people go to see a site. I want everybody to rethink this. Think about something you really love to do, and it doesn't matter what it is. It can be baseball, it can be going to see gardens, it can be going to state fairs. I don't care what it is. Doesn't make any difference. Plan the trip around that, because if you're doing something that you really love and you know that that's going to be the centerpiece of it, the rest of it will come naturally, whereas going to see the empire state building. So you've seen the view now. What I personally love gardens, and one of the things that happens is a you're not around other tourists, there are a lot of locals there who you can talk to and ask them what else should I see in the area? I tend to be fairly chatting and I started my career as a as a market researcher, and so I'm very good at asking questions and getting people to talk and I can get anybody to talk pretty much. And and people love talking about their hometown, they really do. And so if and if you're somewhere that people are doing something that they also like, for example, you had to a baseball game and you're sitting next to someone for a couple of hours, start chatting with them and say, you know, what your favorite restaurant where in town should I go? Do you know what's the what's the most fun thing to do? That's not going to be in a guide book? You will learn incredible things and because they're doing something that you also like, they probably going to suggest things that are going to be interesting to you. Absolutely and and I have proof of well, instead it work out exactly, but proof that people are willing to talk in situations like this. I Adam mets game. Actually, I I in New York a couple years ago. I had called up a friend who would just moved to New York and I was like Hey, like, you just moved here right and he was like yeah, told him I was going to the baseball game. He came on Dad, we met up and then a family was maybe eight rows behind us and their son just came down to where we were sitting, which was the front row in the Outfield, and just sat next to my friend and then they just started talking about baseball for like two and a half hours. And I mean my friends in his s. This kid is, I would guess, eight or nine, I and but they were able to botton over that and it's just so cool to see that happen. It happens all the time, all the time. It especially if it's something that you really like. You know, I am too. I am to also love crafts, so I'll go. I will look for craft shows all over the country and and internationally, I might add.

In fact, I was in Budapest few couple of years before covid and I happen to find out that there was a huge craft fair there and I was by myself and I started wandering around. I met more people. A lot of people spoke English. People were so happy to talk to me, they were telling I mean, I got more restaurant recommendations that I could possibly eaten that. Plus, you know, I got invited to someone's home for dinner. You know, this stuff is if it's something you love, you will make connections. I can almost guarantee. That's another thing too, that I think is really unique, more internationally than, I would say, in the states, as people like come on over for dinner, like I must met you, but hey, we're hitting it off, why an't you coming out? That's that's so cool. I've had it happened here too, not not necessarily for dinner, but I was in Arkansas. And it's also because I travel a lot by myself. You know, if you're a couple, it's people tend not to do it, but if you're by yourself, which is one of the reasons I like to travel by myself, is that people will really ask you. You know, they kind of I don't know if they feel sorry for you or they're curious about you, but I think it's that you're more approachable and people want to talk with you and they're curious about the fact that you're traveling by yourself. Everybody's curious about that because not very many people do, and so when they see someone who is, they often have a lot of questions. Yeah, I think that's spot on. Now, what are some of the must haves for you? At least that you have to bring. Well, my rule of thumb is if I can't carry it on the plane, I do not bring it. So that's for starters. I never, ever ever check alog it things that I must have. I must have my kindle with me. I live and die with that thing. You know, used to be that I bring stacks of books, but you know, it's like wow, I can just bring this. I always be before I go download a guide book and maps. Maps even more importantly than the guide book, I always bring a minimum of first aid kinds of things. Not all that much, but some ear plugs are an absolute necessity because you just don't know and I'm a light sleeper and so that's you know, they don't weigh anything, they're very small and their critical. What else are absolute necessities for me? An extra pair of shoes, because buying shoes in another country is not easy, especially for that laughed out of a store in China. Oh yeah, asking if they had shoes in my size there. They looked at my feet. They're like no, no, get out of here. Right. That's true. As an American, almost anywhere in the world you will not be able to buy shoes unless you have very, very small feed clothes you can, but not shoes. When I wore glasses, used always have an extra pair of glasses with me because that's, again, difficult to replace. It's the things that are that you can't replace easily that you bring the stuff that you can buy elsewhere, and you can buy most things most parts of the world. You forget it to be toothpaste. This is not a big issue. You know, you don't have a second pair of shoes in the first pair of shoes, I don't know. You get...

...a hole in it or they get soaking wet, you're in trouble. So it's the things that are that are not replaceable, as opposed to things that are easily obtainable, and I know people who, you know, have to have every possible the bug spray and the Suntan Lush, and I always buy that stuff wherever I'm going, as opposed to carrying it with me, and then I get rid of it before I leave and that means that I can do carry on, you know. So it's that kind of thing that you you know it's not going to be more expensive there than it is here, and then you don't have to carry it. Yeah, I think that's such an I'm trying to think the last time I checked a bag and I think it was when I we went to a distilling distillery in London and they just had they gave us a bunch of gin bottles because it was part of a class. So I'm like, okay, well, I don't want to waste like eight bottles of this, I guess I'll take it out. Right, we'll check one if these bags. But yeah, otherwise, totally with you it. It makes it so much easier to just oh, absolutely, absolutely, and if you're traveling in the US, quite honestly, there's nothing that's critical except your phone. Yeah, okay, you phone, you can, but you're all said easy, you don't need to check a back fence. Really, I mean I know P I actually have friends, you know, and I this is another another really good tip. Save up all year old underwear that you're about to toss out. Don't get rid of it. Carry it with you. We can travel and toss it as you go, because then you have room for souvenirs on the way back. Yeah, you have old t shirts, you know, bring old t shirts, tossome as you go, and then you've got plenty of room for whatever you're going to pick up as a souvenir along the way. It's great and you get to it's like you're spreading yourself around around the world. You're like, Hey, I'll pass it on. Yeah, exact, exceptable, except accept in certain countries. You have to be very widely about it. I was in China and I throughout a Bra and as I'm leaving the hotel they come running after me with the Bra going did you leave this behind? I was like, Oh no, Oh no, so I've learned now. You Bury it in a bag and you know at the bottom of the garbage don't yeah, don't make it obvious until you're you're on the plane. Make It. Yeah, yeah, but it's but it's a great way. I mean I was on a trip in Tanzania and one of the guys they had told us to bring stuff to barter and he brought different clothes, I mean totally different clothes for every single day and gave it all away in exchange for things and I think he ended up going home with more stuff than he came with. But it was a it was a great strategy. He said he had just saved up old clothes for a year and anything that he thought, you know, probably won't wear this again or I never really liked it, he brought on the trip with him. It's very impressive. That's like that. I'm going to forget what it is now, like the story of the the man who traded a paper clip for a house eventually, because he just kept trading on. That's like the real life application of it. I like. I like it. Yeah, and it makes you a lot of friends. They're thrilled. You know, especially in developing countries, people really do like pair American jeans. It's worth a lot and so you make a lot of friends and then you have room for stuff. Well, I'll ask you this question then you can let me know if you if you have anything to because I feel like we have kind of covered it. But one of the questions that I like to ask is a question you wish you were asked more frequently, and for you... was aside from traveling, because we know you love to travel, but what are some of your other passions and how do you combine them? Well, we sort of have done that, but I love I love gardens, I love crafts, I love going to music of various kinds and all of those things I incorporate into my travel and food, and let us not forget food and and one of the great things about particularly traveling overseas, but in this country too, is going for cooking classes. I have taken cooking classes all over the globe and the best ones are when they're in someone's home, so you get to see their home. They take you out to the market. You No, I love walking through markets, but I often don't know what anything is and if I don't speak the language, which is usually the case, I'm no idea what I'm looking at. And if you go with someone who's going to now teach you how to cook, they'll explain everything and they'll get you tastes of things and it's just great fun to do. And I've done it in I've done it in Korea, I've done it in Japan, in New Orleans, there's tons of places like that. I've done in Bali, Vietnam, I mean I've done it a lot of places and it's Italy and it's just just great fun. So again, that's doing something that's around your passion. Have you ever found a or done a cooking class where they food with something really unusual, or do they kind of stick to more traditional dishes for the country? No, I'll then they're very unusual in China. I actually stated someone's home and I to this day I'm not sure I know what we were eating, but it was tasted great. I mean I knew we made we made dumplings, but what they were filled with I wasn't sure. I really wanted to know. But but it was great. I mean I really you know, they were they had us rolling out the dough and they, you know, they were explaining how you put it together and by demonstrating, because they did not speak English. But it was it was great fun. It was just great fun. I've done it in Mexico, you know. I learned how to make molay sauce, which is not easy. That's very impressive. Yeah, it's great. I mean it's you know. So yes, that's that is something that I frequently do just because it's I like being in the culture. You know, I don't want to just look out a window. I want to be in with people and experiences and doing things that are that somebody in the local area would do, and cooking is something that everybody does all over the globe and it's a great way to learn about a culture. It really is. Yeah, it's, I would say, possibly the best way, along with music, I think are to it like the top two ways to to learn about things like that. And you mentioned how you like bringing guides and and I think I think we can say that your your book, Travel Mania, is both both serves as a guide and a memoir and just lots of great stories within it. But we're putting your book to the side, we're putting it on the kindle so you've got it to read. What are your top three other books about travel that everyone needs to check out? Bill Bryson is my role model. I Love Bill Bryson. I think I have read every one of his books and the very first one that I read was right after it was published. I bought it in London and it was called the lost continent and I was reading it laughing. I bought it at the airport on and at Heathrow on my way back home and I'm sitting on the plane reading it, laughing at lad and everybody ran these going what are you reading? And I I've converted many people... reading it and I can't, I can't begin to tell you how funny he is and how insightful he is, and most people know him for a walk on the Appalachian trail. But he's got the early books are hlariously funny. I think there's another one called neither here nor there. There's there's several of them. There's an Irish writer and her name is Dervila Murphy and I also discovered her when I was in Europe. She is the most adventurous travel I have ever heard of. Read. This woman is intrepid in ways that you couldn't convince me to do most of the things that she's done. She went her the very first book she books she wrote was called full tilt from Ireland to India with a bicycle and she went literally by herself on a bicycle over the mountains. I mean this woman's nut and she did that in I think the early S, maybe maybe even the late days, when it was much harder to travel. Then she has another one that that's called eight feet in the andies. She has a young daughter and that she and her daughter and a mule go into the hinterlands in the andies in Peru and hike for three months or two months and meeting people along the way. And you know she's got books of an Ethiopia and yeah, she's a fabulous writer. You feel like you are with her and doing things that no one in their right mind would do, but it's fascinating to read about. And then there's a lot of other books that I just like. Anthony Bourdain. I always loved his show, but he also wrote a book called World, World Travel that I like a lot. There's another woman, Alexandra Fuller, who their memoirs, but they're really travel books and they're terrific. So that's a few of them I have. I like reading travel books. I have. I could give you a lot of people to read, but what's that? But those would be thosen't be kind of top of the list. Fantastic list for sure. And if people want to learn more about you or pick up a couple copy of travel mania, stories of wonder lust, where can I find you? Well, travel mania is on Amazon, Barnes and noble, pretty much anywhere, and you should have no trouble getting it. It just went into second printing, so that it's Nice News. Yeah, considering that it's only been at two weeks, I'm very excited about that and I have a website and it's very easy. Karen Gershowitzcom my name andcom and you got it. And if you read the book, I had a section on the site that has photographs that go with every single chapter in the book. So if you look under travel mania and you scroll down a bit, you'll see gallery, and the gallery literally is every single chapter are with photographs and and I'm a good photographer, so there's some terrific photographs on there. Well, in the next episode I'm going to ask you to teach me photography, because I still something I struggle with the Times. Yeah, well, what I didn't tell you is I said I told you I changed careers my education. I have a BFA and an MFA and ceramics, so I have a fine arts background, and so there's a there's a reason why. Awesome Will Karen, thank... so much. This was fantastic and it's I'm like thinking of all the trips now that I'm like planning in my head. So excellent work. Well, good get out there and go for it and and thank you for having me. This is great. Fubsolutely, and let's end with a Corny joke, as we always do. Why does a plane engine hum? No idea, because it doesn't know the words good after it today people. Okay, good people cool things is produced in Austin, Texas. If you were a fan of this episode, go ahead and hit that follow button. That helps more people here the show. As always, you can send me a message Joey at good people cool thingscom. Thank you to all of the guests who have been on good people cool things. Check out all the old episodes via good people cool thingscom. As always, thank you for listening and have a wonderful day.

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