Good People, Cool Things
Good People, Cool Things

Episode 114 · 6 months ago

114: Making Candy and Growing a Brand with Tamalitoz Owners Jack Bessulo and Dec Simmons

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

I’ve been a candy fan for about as long as I can remember. Halloween nights were a contest to see how many Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups and Twix bars I could amass, and I once ate an entire large bag of Sour Skittles at a movie once (it was Undercover Brother, if you’re scoring at home). Yet I’ve never tried a candy quite like Tamalitoz.

It combines some of the traditional flavors of Mexican candy with British sweets, with a bit of spice on the inside, rather than coating the outside. You’ll definitely want to try Tamalitoz by Sugarox. Owners Jack Bessulo and Dec Simmons share how they got started, ways to expand a brand, and some of the most surprising things about running a business.

Good people cool things as a podcast feature and conversations with entrepreneurs, writers, musicians and other creatives. Get inspired by their stories to do your own cool thing, and here's your host, Joey held. Welcome to good people, cool things. Today's guests are Jack and deck, the cofounders of Tomilitos by sugar rocks, and if you're a candy fiend, this is the episode for you. Jack and deck talk about how they combine some of their favorite treats from their Mexican and British backgrounds respectively to make a candy that really isn't like anything else I've ever tasted before. Maybe you have. If so, show me your candy prowess, because I think I have pretty good candy background and knowledge, but this is something new to me. These Tomi Lacho's are very tasty. We're talking all about how Jack and deck have built up this brand from really like a homemade candy shop that they started that is now across the country. You can find it in Michael's and H Eb's and a lot more, all across the United States. There's so much going on in this episode. There's even a snoring dog for some of it, who joined the call and it's a very soothing snore. It's not like the kind that keeps you up at night, perhaps someone you live with, or perhaps you're rooming with someone and they're just like going crazy with the snorret. It's not like. That's a gentle, soothing snoring that last for, I may, the first ten or so minutes of the episode, but it puts you in a nice relaxed state of minds you can listen to all of the good stuff that Jack and deck are imparting on us. If you'd like to hear even more of that good stuff, head on over to good people, cool thingscom. Sign up for the mailing list and you'll get all these wonderful tools, resources, tips, ways you can do your own creative thing right in your inbox. It's glorious, it's magical, just like this conversation with Jack and deck. For people who maybe aren't familiar with you and know who you are, can you give us your name and your elevator pitch and also the type of elevator that we're riding on? All Right, so I'm Jack on deck. So I actually started sugar rucks Candy Studio Down in Mexico City. It started as a candy store. We were making small patch candy that moved over from the UK and we got married shortly after. We started the Candy Company in Mexico and we started supplying lots of hotels with our candy and because of that we'd get phone calls from people outside of Mexico saying they had bought the candy in the hotels and saying that they loved it, and deck well, he was sort of looking forward to expanding the business outside of Mexico and we found out that our most popular flavor were these candy pillows filled with Chili Limon Sea salt at the time, and we just call them pillows. So we said well,...

...when we branded something, and one day we were making this candy in the store, of lady came in and she said, Oh, they in Spanish. She said by. They said that my lead, does it? They look like that, my latus or tiny, that matics. That said, well, that was my jump up moment, that was the Eurupa moment of that's the brand, that's that's where we need to go with this. So we came up with the brand. That my lead, those by sugar rugs and at the time were ideal was let's keep on making this small badge and we can start selling it in the states, maybe online or maybe a couple of mom and pup shops, and it's sort of exploded. So we we started shipping up to through the Raido into the US. We went to a trade show in Chicago, which is the sweets and snap show, very naive in what we were going into. We don't know anything like that before. So we arrived with a table cloth, a few bags of candy and it was very much still don a concept more than anything, and we were sat there with our little stand surrounded by this huge stands with neon lights and and everything, and the show started and from the moment the show started we had crowds of people around the stand. So that stage we knew that we were on two a good thing. In my concern at the beginning was how will people react to a more high end Mexican style candy, because up to now Mexican candy, as you know, it's not the highest quality and if you look at the packaging and the price point, it's pretty low. So that was my concern and when people would ask me who are you targeting, I'd say, well, I'm not really targeting the Hispanic market in the states because I feel like like speaking like for my for myself before sugar uts at the money does, we have our favorite brands of Mexican candy and they are deeply grained into us since we're kids. So I knew I wasn't going to come be able to compete with that. So sort of the idea was, let's make this hybrid, sort of like European style candy with the Mexican twist, and let's target it to, you know, maybe not the Hispanic consumer, but more people that probably aren't eating Mexican style candy but are curious and they're looking for, you know, unique flavor experiences. So that was sort of our starting point. So when we went to this show, I was I was nervous because our price point is a little bit higher, or actually quite a bit higher, than all other Mexican candy and actually quite a bit higher than most candy in the Candy Aisle. Another reason is because, well, you know, it's hand crafted and we do use natural call there's a...

...natural flavors. So we were sort of tiptoeing into this space with the part of that we we believe them, but we weren't sure how they think it was going to react. And we got interest on that very first show from some pretty big buyers, national buyers. So at the time, like we mentioned that can, I were making this candy in the candy store. Well, DECK AND IRON UNDER STAFF DOWN AT THE STORE. By this time we had a couple of stores. So when we were asked what your production capacity we said, well, if we stopped making everything else and just focus on the them, I eat those, will probably be able to make what like Ninezero Pouches of candy a month, which to US seemed like a really big number. I'm sorry for signoring. That was working my seven. It's not made us for and a sleep. It's the bulldog. That's sat offer. Yeah, which we should call it after people listen, that checks out, Bor, I gut saw this sly. Yes, you guys all old us. I just give it time. So so, yeah, I mean when these buyers heard our production capacity, they laughed and they said, Oh my God, guys, for us to consider you, you have to be able to make at least fiftyzero pouches a month, which for a small you know, independent, All teasional handmade candy company with about four people working in it was it was sort of terrifying. Are Yeah, but in a good way, but we were unprepared. So our knee jerk reaction was, when we started hearing this, is we need to build out like not a Candy Factory, like a Candy Studio. We do the same thing, but instead of just having one group of Artisans Making Candy, we hired like ten groups. So what we did is we actually went ahead and did that. So we built out a candy kitchen where we were doing pretty much what we were doing in this store, but times five. So we so we could really increase our production and that's what we realized. We're really good at making candy and small batches. My background was in marketing, so I felt really confident in the brand and the branding and look and feel, but when it came to production, that was a stumbling block and we hit ourselves. We ran up again a pretty cool Yastle. Yeah, from the logistics part of getting the product from Mexico City to our distribution hub, which was set up in Indianapolis, because we weren't thinking right. I mean reminded a lot of mistakes at the beginning, basically. Yeah, yeah, I mean the share of logistics of moving product from Mexico City across the north of Mexico, through the Rido, through the FDI into the United States. Um, you know, certain...

...times a year, remember in this candy it was, it was, it was a nightmare. Yeah, so then we had issues with, you know, with the transportation. We had issues with the product because it was a arriving some of it stuck together and we didn't understand why. And then one day one of these trade shows, we met a CO packer and they were asking, well, how do you make the stuff? How do you make that money? Those and we told them they're like, HMM, you know, you're probably putting too much water in it. Then you should look into maybe working with a CO packer, which we would have loved to do, but when you work with a copacker they'll usually ask for huge production runs. And again we get back to that point. We're just two guys at own a small candy shop. If someone turns to US and says you have to pay for an advance, basically, you know, found a thousand backs candy. Yeah, it's it's it was a lot of money, a big risk and but um. But we met this copacker and she was actually amazing and what she did for us, I mean I think she saw the product and she believed in the product and she told us, guys, were all do for you is I'll make the candy for you. You guys go out and sell it and I'll charge you as you sell it. So basically was like on consignment, which was amazing. And so at that time we decided to change our production from inhouse to the COPACKER, with one of the huge caveats that I had for her is I still needed to be handcrafted. And feels like, well, you're in luck, because the way that you make your candy in the way that we make our candy is basically the same, except that we we can cook in a lot quicker. In the end part of the process, which is the stretching out of the candy, we can put it onto a machine and so does that lun faster, whereas we were doing it all by hand. But the important part, which is like the putting together the ingredients and rolling it into this big candy Lug, it was all done the same way that we always did it and not show what she could do is you could, she could manufacture what we used to take six weeks to manufactures. You could do that in two days. Wow. So from our point of view it gave us the the the the instant production capacity, but also gave us a growth capacity as well. So from our point of view that was amazing, and it also let us step away from the production and the headaches of production and concentrate more on the growth of the business, which is what we did and that's what's led us to introduce a lot more flavors. When ounce ten players of Tamilitos, and you know so, how...

...we not have met her and, having not done that, we wouldn't have grown as quick as we have. Oh my God, this is a long elevator pitches. One Hell of a ride, but of those rides are someone forgets to push the button. It just cut. That's like away. Yeah, let's get that. Are you sure it's not you, store and Joe? No, I'm still wideways. That's the let me, let me. You've got the short version. When he stops. I've had a few cups of coffee, so I'm fine now. You mentioned you had those new flavors. I always think that it's fun to hear kind of some of the rejected flavors that you had. So what were a couple that you thought hey, maybe this will be good and then when you tried it it was just like, oh, that doesn't work very well. Well, when we were in the candy store we'd actually play a lot with the flavors because we had the flexibility of being able to do small runs. So the concept is simple. It's just like a candy Shell and we could fill it with anything. So I don't know if you're familiar with molly. HMM. Yeah, so money is like it's like a Mexican sauce. You put it on chicken, but it's made from the paste. So I was thinking one day will why don't make Morey that candy? So we actually made the candy and we filled it with the mullet past and it was actually pretty good, wasn't it? It was horrible bad, I mean more less like a mix of chilis and chocolate and nuts. For me I thought it was really good, but I don't think it would have floated very well here in the US, put it that way. Not In the EU. No, probably in that it's really what my thing. It's difficult to do is to get a flavor that is natural, that is really, really good. I mean we play around with a lot of flavors and the amount of times our flavor company that we work with have sent US samples and we've we've tried to make it and it's not been good enough. The whole idea of Tamilitos is the moment you pop them by the Tamiatas in your mouth, you immediately get the flavor and it's a good, strong flavor. So we've it takes us a long time to develop new flavors, a lot of battles and forwards, and even the last lot of flavors that we that we launched, we were making candy and a little apartments mid pandemic, you know, little little batches, you know, and the the flavors were going backs and forwards, backers and forwards, to this company until we got the ones that we were happy with. And you know, there's it's not rocket science, but it you know, what we don't want to do is launch flavors that people, you know, then gravitate that much towards. But we've got some really unusual flavors. I mean one of the ones that I personally like very much is the cucumber. There's not very many cucumber candies out there, but our cucumber candy is amazing and it's incredible that the amount of people that say to us the that they buy the cucumber candy...

...not only as a candy, but they've also used it at parties where you actually drop one of the one of the candies in a shop Tequila or in a gin or whatever, and it changes the flavor of the gym or the vodka or Tila really well, and we were quite surprised to hear that the people are experimenting quite a lot with something that was essentially just just a candy. You know, that's incredible, but I mean everyone's got their own favorite. I mean what we started with a water molon the mango and now say we've got the ten flavors. My say, my person flavorites cucumber, and I think Jack's is is probably the Tamarind and traditional this so that I need to started as a Mexican flavors and I think Tamarind and Chili is the quintessential Mexican candy flavor. And I mean I just even today, I just taste, one of our tamerant that my need thus and it transports me to my summers in a couple of guys, a kid. It's just it just tastes like my childhood. We always get asked when we're doing trade chosen things. Well, what's your favorite flavor, which I mean I say cucumber because they hear the accent. They immediately termine and say, oh, because you guys eat cucumber sandwiches. You know, we've all been to winwood and and it's nothing to do it whatsoever. I just think the cucumber flavor is really, really good, follow very closely by the water molon. I mean the water molions. But then when I say water Malon, I don't get people looking at me as if I'm speaking Kurdish or something. That watermelon doesn't but the accident and comes out. Now, Jack, you wouldn't mention that. You kind of grew up with with all of this candy, you know, and it goes back to your childhood deck. Was that the same for you? They like you were. You were hooked on candy as a kid. I know a lot of kids are about where they're like one or two that really stood out well, I mean the sort of candy that I grew up with. When you live in the UK and you go to the to the beach, you get what's called sticks of rock and basically it's like a foot long stick of candy that has like it'll have I love the seaside or kiss me quick or something like that written through the middle of the candy. So when we started sugar ocks, that was essentially what we were doing. We were making that candy but cutting it into small, bite size pieces. I'm used to do a lot of weddings and birthdays and different different social event as well as corporate logos through the mid of the candy. So for me that was that was something very familiar to what I was doing to Malie's. Did I eat a lot of to Mali's in the UK? No, but when as we Tibellar at about that, well, Mexican restaurants in the UK at and nowhere near as good as well I are in Mexico. I mean it all they do in the UK's they just put as much chilly in it as they possibly can, so it just blows the top of your head off, you know. And and so it wasn't somewhere that used to go very often. It was more fish and chips and Pine Mash for me. But but now, I mean Jack grew up with with Tamali, so, you know,...

...the move into Tamalitos, you know, with the concept of talent to Malie's was more natural to him than they. But we obviously the flavors. I mean I'm have to bet the Tamarind ones that Jack's favor. I've never eaten Timor in in my life before moving to Mexico, but I mean it is used a lot in Indian food and Mede or Indian food there, but but in Mexico I think it's just pastake. Would die, I think. So, like the flavors. When we started that Malthus a couple of years ago, we launched five flavors which were really Mexican. So it was the watermelon, mango, Tamarind, cucumber and pineapple, and those are the flavors that you find in most Mexican candy. And during this covid craze, well, we said, well, let's develop something else. I was thinking, okay, well, we're living in Texas. Why don't we develop something more like a hybrid, you know, Tex Mex type thing. Why don't we take more American flavors and sort of Mexicanizer? So the next five set of flavors that we launched like sort of through three and then too. Yeah, but yeah. So they were like a column sort of my chicken or creations, because there's sort of American but with the Mexican soul. We came out with Cherry, with Jili, which is not traditionally Mexican at all. We came up with Blood Orange and Chili, peach and Chili. So they were like flavors that I that we grabbed from American candy and we sort of gave it this twist and I think that's sort of fun and and people are liking it, especially the blood orange. That one's been really popular. Yeah, but it's been cool to do like this hybrid chicken or text Mex Candy, because I don't think anyone's ever done that. Yeah, that sounds I'm not trying to like rack my brain of if I've heard heard of Batory, for I don't think I have. So the next thing that happens is after we choose the flavors and we're happy with the flavors, we then go into this huge debating room, if you like, of what the Hell we're going to call this, and Jack Normally wins on on all of those arguments because he comes up with some weird wonderful name. So if anyone is used to those use of the Tamilitos, then I'm not going to put my hand up to I'm up with any of the names. Taps done all those, because what that gas saying is each of the flavors, like the watermelon is divine watermelon, the mangoes lip smacking men, tenalizing Tamarind. So you know, it's sort of Quirky, little a little tongue in cheek. The two recent ones, one of them is quiet sort of you know on the line it's cranberry fantasy, and the second one is peach slapped, which Jack came up with. So I'm not going to put hand up to that one either, but you know it's don't know, they're where we get some from, really probable part of his marketing background, though. You know where I do get it from it. Have you ever Rupaul's drag race? Joey? I have. Yes,...

...yeah, okay, so you know, at the end of the show or when they do the runway rupole always calls out added wory is and she'll say whatever the category it's. So I'm thinking to myself, and this is sort of my nod to our, you know, our drag family queens and kings out there, which I think is fabulous. I mean in the gay community I always see them. They're so brave and anyways, I won't go off on a ten and, but it's sort of my nod to like the drag community. I say, well, I'd like to name them as if they were categories and group of Nice. Joey, what you're saying is underneath this two hundred pound hairy lump of flesh longside me, there's a drag queen in this somewhere. I wish I was as really funny and beautiful as some of them, but so well, but did a second to get this question out. But so that that is clearly the the Rue Paul inspiration for naming. But obviously just the name is one part of the marketing element. Overall, you've got the marketing background. You know very well. There's like a new social media platform coming out every I don't know, ever two weeks, it seems like here a new trend to hop on all that good stuff. So what have you found has worked well with your marketing? We really we've had more success with instagram. We're sort of trying to find our way through. We're working with a friend of ours who has an agency here in Austin and she's, you know, she's helping us create content because, honestly, Joey, when I was in advertising, that was like fifteen years ago. It's, I feel like, yeah, different and I'm, you know, I mean, and I was in strategy when I was in market in advertising, so I was the planner and I do consumer insight and I do focus groups. I feel like right now, if I were to throw myself into the world of marketing and advertising, I wouldn't know what I'm doing. Like it's so different, you know, like you say. I mean, where do you go? Where do you focus your attention? The one thing that I mean, obviously his remained the same as that to connect with consumers it has to be more about consumers than it is about your brand. What I love about these new channels is it it's it is really direct and you're not limited to talking about, you know, attributes and you know, boring sides of products that that was always a challenge when I was working in advertising. How do you convince your clients that your brand is more than just, you know, product attributes and benefits, that it's that has to mean something and you have to bring life to it. So in that sense I think that all of these channels really allow for a brand to really express itself as an...

...individual. But I also feel like I run out of ideas really quick now. So having the help that's agents, that's old age. Yeah, it's great to work with people that are a lot younger than me and more in the know and they've been really good at bringing fresh ideas and fun things. One of the things it's always amazing me about Tommilto's is that it's a product that people like to share and talk about and we very often get emails from from customers that quite amazing. I mean we have on this week that from someone who was really, really sick for Covid I mean, obviously it's one in everyone's mind at the moment, but she was really sick and she's lost the sense of taste and smell and she said to us that the only thing that she's found that she can actually and enjoy at the moment are some of our timilitos and Jashually took the time to actually send us an email about that and that was pretty incredible. I mean in the past with that, people that have been suffering with cancer and going through chemotherapy and radiology, univer sort of stuff and and you know they've said that, you know, all they're eating at the moment is to Ammilto's. You know, it's incredible to hear that. But people, you know so many people that have brought into the brand and love the brand and, you know, super excited every time we launt something new or we talked about something new or we manage get into a little store down the road from where they live or you know, it's it's really inspirational, really is. But like what I had noticed causes like the most interest is like when deck and I do it are on you know, when we are on camera explaining something or talking about something and it's like really personal. That's seems to be what people like the most. So we can spend hours and we'll go on photo shoots and it will get, you know, some good reaction. But it's funny what gets the most reaction could just be decon. I sitting in the living room talking about something and do it like a live stream on instagram and though the truth of explode. The truth is no one can sell a products. Why? The owner of the business the only the business. Has got to love the product. And we loved Hamiltos. It's a little baby, you know. We gave birth, tend little babies and and you know it's you look great after for Tem Baby. We share the responsibility. Don't work and you know, it's been it's been a journey the last I mean we're coming up to be in ten years married now. We started it about a year or year and a half before we got married. So it's been like a twelve year relationship with Time Altos, or with candy. I mean I didn't have anything to do with candy apart from eating it, before I moved from from Uka to Mexico and then I found myself in this in this candy world, and you know, it's been a roller coaster. It's been revert good days, bad days, exciting days. It's life, you know, it is what it is. But so...

I think you know, when you start touching people's lives like we do with Tamiltos and it then becomes emotional. That's what's important for the two of us. But you know, I mean when we go to trade shows and we actually do, actually do the trade shows. We you know, it's far more successful for Jack and I to do it because we have the passion behind it. And you know, we've had good done trade shows. We've had sound stuff there and or we've brought in sale stuff and it's not been a good trade show. So that basically means that the foreseeable future Jack and I have to do all the trade shows. But it's fun to travel sometimes, right. Yeah, yeah, and through obviously covid impacted all of us, like we know. Talk about some of the messages that you get. I'm sure you've had supply chain issues at some point, or at least like delays or tweaks that you've had to make. So has there been something that has been like extra surprising over this past couple of years, or just the whole state of the world really really surprising is that we moved to Austin in November two thousand and nineteen. So we moved up here and set up the office here and we would edit warehouse over in California where we used to ship the products in from Tanna, and we came here because we the business of growing tremendously and we want to be with actions, because before that we were remotely doing it from Mexico and traveling in and out all the time. So we arrived November two thousand and nineteen, basically two months before covid really started to take off here. So couple months into into covid. So jump forward to sort of March, April of two thousand and twenty. That's when it's things started to get really serious here in the US. We codd and we were worried. I mean we started to see some big order started to drop off because, you know, stores were closing that didn't know what was happening and we we were. We have quite a few sleepless nights thinking, my God, we've just moved here and this is now happening. What's it going to do to our business? Luckily for us, two thousand and twenty was our best year ever. I mean it was just tremendous something. What happened was people, people seem to like he can eating candy and a pandemic and you know, our online sales just grew tremendously, like tenfold, I mean incredible. So that was incredible for us. So the first year of actually being here, although we were stuck in our apartment and, you know, going out briefly and you know all that sort of stuff, we had our best year. Last year was a lot better than the previous year. So we're on a trajectory at the moment which hopefully is going to take us to bigger and better things. So I think also, like in reference to your question, is there has been a big supply chain issues for lots of people. I think we've been really good at planning things out. So we've kept our stocks up pretty high and warehouse and they think are customers know that. So...

...because there's been a supply chain issue and lots of the shells have been empty, that's actually been to our advantage because our customers know that we have stuck so they'll maybe place orders that they might not have placed before. So the fact that there hasn't been things to fill their shelves with, but there is done, I lead those has allowed US maybe to penetrate like in a bigger way than we might have another during another time. I mean it's regards to the actual stock product. The only thing we had an issue was the manufacturer of the packaging actually came to us and, stead of the packaging that we were previously using, was totally out stopped here in the US and had absolutely no idea when they were going to get replenishments coming in. So have to change the bag slightly, which meant that on the back of the backs of we will used to have a little window we can see the candy. We had to manipulate the bag so that there is now no window in the back, and that's simply because there wasn't the product to make the bag. It's but that's something I would like never think about it, but I guess it fun but interesting it wasn't. There wasn't a lot of fun for that. Cool, but you know what, there's a silver lining moment and we change the packaging and now we'll realizing that the packaging that we have now is actually better for the candy. It seems to last, you know, better on the shelves and it shapes better. So it's definitely silver lyingable and it features your artwork, as we were talking. Yeah, Nice, Nice, all right, well, you're almost off the hook. Care but we always like to wrap up with a top three and for you, Jack, this was a recommendation that you made. But your top three collaborators for Tom alitos, who are you going to partner with? Definitely Rupaul, if you ever listen to this, we are super willing to partner up with on anything, you know, sweet, spicy, gonna said often. Maybe in a abroad. It's going to be someone like Adela. Think, you know, be nice to do get a dele to wear a drag style dress made out Tom Alito's bag if we something good on our next black and white video that she does no a la. I mean we had been listening a lot to Brandy Carlile and Sam Smith lately. Our House cannot get any gayer again it, but I'd be kind of fun. So, yeah, I know. Anytime we get a chance to share them, I eat those with people that haven't tried it. We're always sort of curious to see what the reaction is and it's so fun when you get that wow, no's. It'd be fun to see celebrities reacted them. I need those. That would always be fun anytime. Yeah, the reaction videos are always always a delight. Just yeah, it's...

...like you're saying, like you just throw on a video, it's no production value, but you're just like, all right, I'm a try this side. It's great. It's so I still find it amazing that people are so wowed by the combination of sweet and spicy that we have, because for me it was just like always there and like I'll give them a neat. Those to someone that's never tried Mexican candy and honestly, the reactors always Oh my God, wow, I've never tasted anything like this. I'm like, for Really, Oh my God, I was a bit wary about some Leita's would be received in Europe, and you can and Europe. We now actually do sell in Italy, France and the UK and took in the UK selling pretty well. So it's exciting. Exacting Times fantastic. Well, people want to pick up a bag or maybe maybe a ten. I would say like try a trial ten. Where can I find you? They can find us online on our shop. which is they can find. Is it the will you do my let those that my neat thos is with a zcom or Michael's shops or across the country or, or, if you're here in Texas, all the agibs. Yeah, love. I'M gonna head over to my age be right now. In fact, I got come pick some up, because nobody does it better. And the plague. Maybe a tree Baal. I'll be listening to some of that sweet, sweet and add money. How are we? Well, Jack a duck. Thank you so much. That was a blast and yeah, I'm excited for people to try it. Well, thank you so much, joing fun. Absolutely we got to end with a Corny joke, as we always do. I think this one actually might be better written, but hopefully it's still translates with an audio joke. But what do you call a train that eats toffee? I don't know. Would you cool to train? East toffee? A Choo Choo train? Oh lovely, good after today. Good people cool things is produced in Austin, Texas. If you're a fan of this episode, go ahead and hit that follow button. That helps more people here the show. You can send me a message Joey at good people cool thingscom. Thank you to all of the guests who have been on good people cool things and check out all the old episodes via good people cool thingscom as always, thank you for listening and have a wonderful day.

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