Good People, Cool Things
Good People, Cool Things

Episode 109 · 2 months ago

109: The Best NBA Players and Teams with Dave Heeren

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The NBA playoffs are upon us! While I can certainly rattle off some random games for you, I don't hold a candle to today's guest: statistician Dave Heeren, who has watched more than 75 YEARS of NBA basketball.

Dave started dissecting games in college and quickly joined the New York Knicks as a team statistician. He's developed his TENDEX value rating to highlight the best to ever play the game. He's diving into TENDEX and so much more in his book Seventy-Five: Best NBA Players and Teams Rated by Statistician who has Seen Games Since 1947.

We're talking about the top players and teams, why you need to trust data, and some of the coolest moments Dave has experienced as a basketball fan.

Good people cool things as a podcast feature and conversations with entrepreneurs, writers, musicians and other creatives. Get inspired by their stories to do your own cool thing, and here's your host, Joey held. Welcome to good people, cool things. Today's guest is Dave Heron, the mind behind the TENDEX value rating system and the author of the New Book Seventy Five Best NBA players and teams, rated by statistician who has seen games since nineteen forty seven. That's seventy five years of watching games. That's more than twice as long as I've been alive, and I like to think I'm a huge basketball fan. Dave blows me out of the water with the amount of knowledge that he has had about basketball. Any hoops fan is going to enjoy this conversation. We're talking about the best players in NBA history, including one that you maybe might not expect. It might not be one of the first guys that comes to mind when you think of top NBA players. We're also looking at the best rebounders, best playmakers, the best overall team, which we've seen a couple of good ones in the last few years. Not Quite the best one, though, so definitely want to stick around and see some of that. Dave also has a great memory of the first time he met Wilt Chamberlain and he's talking all about that story and just so much, so much good basketball stuff going on in here. You know I'm a huge basketball fan if you have listened to this podcast even one time, and there's just so many cool things that we're diving into and I think you're going to really dig it. If you'd like to get in touch with the show, you can reach out via facebook, twitter or instagram at GPCT podcast, or send me an email. Joey at good people, cool thingscom always love here in from you love love here and what you like about a show and maybe what you dislike. But if you're going to tell me what you just like, tell me that directly and put the part that you like on Apple podcasts or podschaser. A quick little five star review there would do you plenty of good. It's just what the doctor prescribed, except you don't have to take medicine. It's just clicking a button to give five stars. Very simple, very wonderful, very enjoyable, just like this conversation with Dave. For people that maybe aren't familiar with your work. You came up with the TENDEX value rating. Can you give us a little peek? Like how how did you come up with that? Well, actually started I was attending University of Delaware Sophomore Year. The sports editors at newspaper was down the hall from, you know, Ania dormitory. We got to talk in sports all the time. He's so why he's coming in and write some for the news to the newspaper and I had been kind of dodging that because my dad, it's a good everything know ever become a journalist. My Dad work for the New York Times's don't become a journalist and then the next words out of his mouth would have with some kind of clue as to what you should write and what you should say. So He's teaching me how to be what he's telling me what not to be. And here I am. I was actually very well prepared to start out my sophomore year at college writing sports because I was a big sports fan. I was already ten years and then more than ten years and NBA Fan starting in one thousand nine hundred and forty seven of my was it nine years old. So here, here I am, at the age. At the age of twenty, I had been an NBA Chan already for eleven years and I go as this game and I noticed that the guys supposed to be the team star player does look that good to me. He had the scored a lot of poise, but he was just a gunner. He was not a team player at all and he missed an awful lot of shots. So I started doing a little computation to my own because every time I called in a game they wanted to know the high score. I thought it was a dumb question because the high scorers...

...it's not always the best players. The Celtic and Bill Russell will tell you you know, but in Russell at that time was very prominent in the NBA. Anyway, I go to this game find out Longebie Hole, the high score, is not the best player. So I started making little tabulations and I there were only five of them at that time. points, rebounds, assists, fuel goal and free through shooting percentages, which included miss shots. So I had the pluses and then have the minuses from Miss Shots. In Lone behold, the guy who scored in nine points a game was a much better player than the guy was scoring eighteen and I wrote this up for the student newspaper. It wound up in the Wilmington Morning News, that metropolis daily, and went on from there. My first job out of college, my did actually help me get this job, was with the New York Knicks Organization and it went very long fact, it was very short time before they made me this team statistician. And here I am, this kid right out of college, on the New York Knicks statistician. And then the first contact I have with a player, I see this huge, huge finger coming around pointing at the status that I'm computing. And I was running more stats at that time because I had a team more. It wasn't tendecks yet, but there were eight or nine stats by but by that time there were no steels, turnovers or blocks, but there work. There was some more stats than originally anyway, I'm computing them and and this guy with the huge figure, you see, you said to me, I hear your you do these ratings, you see. He said, what's my rating? I turn look at it's will chamber one and I said well, well, you're one of the two greatest players in the world right now and you're you have this great rain, etcetera, etc. And he said WHO's the hues? The other got and he says it Russell. No, it's not, rustle, it's not. He's not even close. Says between you, and he said, Oh, I know, it's the big Oh. I said yeah, it's right, it's you and Oscar Robertson, of the two greatest, and I showed in the statistics to prove I mean, he was just you know, at that was the year he scored fifty points a game, and Robertson was already getting triple doubles all over the place, even though at that time they did not give out many as many assists as they later did. So He's losing three or four assist a game and he's still averaging a triple double and he's just a kid, just like Chameron. Just kid. So this was really the beginning of it, because later on, when I put things together, the four names that came out as the greatest of all time, and the others weren't even close, for Chamberlain, Robertson, Michael Jordan and Lebron James. So you have to from recent past and too, from the distant pass and this kind of helps to verify ten ext in a way, because it shows there's no partiality. The lead really grew up after the twenty four second clock was installed in one thousand nine hundred and fifty four. So it's s were just as great for the top players as the e s were, and they were great players all along. There's been you know, recently we Lebron James is still claim he's one of the four greatest and there's a lot of great ones likely, and there were a lot of great ones in the sixty there's a lot of great ones in the S it's well balanced, except for the very beginning when they when the players. They weren't getting any money, so they weren't they weren't keeping in shape and some of them were splitting their time...

...playing basketball and doing another thing. Like Ernie vanderway was a doctor. He was a New York Nick pretty good player. He would just quit during the middle of the season because you would say, I got to make some money, so he go back to his doctor practice for the rest of the season. These guys are actually poor and they weren't in shape. They weren't getting suck keeping themselves in shape. The physical star and the great athletes start occurred after the second clock. Up until that time, about for about the first ten years, the NBA was not a great league. And I don't I don't care what you see written. The legendary paid well. The Legend, the truth of the legend, is that those guys who are not very good. Bob Couzy, he he shot about three hundred and seventy five was his field goal percentage. Joe Folks, I saw it written. He had he was a fantastic shooter, legendary shooter. He shot thirty percent. These guys were not very good and if you go to the back of my of my book seventy five, and you see the list of seventy five great players and then a bunch of honorable mentions, and right down at the direy bottom of the pile, about number one hundred are are George Mike and and Bob Coozy. Those are the only ones from that first decade and they write in there right at the Bob because they weren't that good. Kuzy was embarrassed by Robertson the first time and you can the second time they played so bad. I mean it's Robertson's rating with something like one point, one, two five and cruzy was something like a hundred and they play played each other and Kuzy was still in his prime. They were just miles apart. The League was growing up and and it really did, with Chamberlain and Robertson and Jerry West and will Russell and Jerry Jerry Lucas, guys like this, to the league grew up. But I hate it when it's t talk talking about legendary great players like Joe Folks in Bob Goozy, because it just was not true. It wasn't true, but it was a lot of fun, you know, talking about legendary was a lot of fun, but it wasn't true. I remember doing in high school. We had the MIC and drill that we would do where it was, I believe it was just shooting layups, but sort of as a as a jump Hook, and I I always remember thinking like what is the purpose of this? Like we we're not. It wasn't even like layup lines. It was like standing under the basket and then taking a step out to do and I was like what situation are we finding ourselves? And I mean George Michaem very tall, obviously, so maybe he's is finding himself there, but just wild. That was it. There were just going back to the true primitive days of the League where if you guy got her offense or rebound, you can go step back a step and lay the ball and in the basket and not have to worry about having it block like. Course in this in the s there were a bunch of guys who could do that, not just Russell. Chamber one blocks as many shots and Russell did and other guys could. You could not shoot if Robertson got in your face. You could not shoot over. I mean these guys were were skywalk just is this photo of Robertsy and his head is three inches below the bask and when you compute that he's six five. That's a hundred and seventeen inches. So for it. So so you just figure it out and you're in. You're fine that that he's forty his feet or forty inches off the floor, because you got a forty and a three is forty three and is high makes up to this the a. The difference between I think it was seven hundred and...

...seventy seven inches was his height. You he was six foot five so that shows that he's a forty inch Lee forty inch sleeper, and he's rebound it. I mean if he's actually trying to jump, he could probably go a few inches higher than that. He's actually rebounding and he's forty. He's forty, forty inches off the floor. These guys were great athletes. Robertson and Jablin, they team. They that's really were. Tamberlaine once made a free throw. He was a terrible free throw shooter's he was so powerful. He had a terrible touch from the line. He's like shack from the line. He was just hum obvious and powerful, only he was more athletic and shack. You could. He move up on the floor, up and down the floor better than Jackly, but Jack was the same way and they were terrible free throw shooter. So he could. He stepped back a few feet from the foul line. He's stoning free throw and he runs up the leaves his feet behind the free throw line, jams the ball before his feet hit the floor and the league panics. They said we did. They let the cells of get away with anything they wanted to, because right our back was king and that's how Russell got allways a claim which he didn't deserve. But Will Chamberlain, the Rosca, obviously did something. The lead went crazy because Tho buck was running the league and that's not going to like this. We get we can't let will do that. We can't let us do that. It was it was exceedingly imbalanced from that perspective in fair or the Celtics. But as far as the talent was concerned, the talent was was there in the s. It really was after Chamberlain and Robertson arrived. I should share an apology to my mom and sister this. I always thought it was extremely common knowledge that will chamberlain scored a hundred points in a game. And I remember my mom and sister were playing a home version of who wants to be a millionaire and the million dollar question was what NBA Player scored a hundred points in a basketball game? And again I thought this was very simple. So I was like, Oh yeah, of course it's Michael Jordan, like obviously they know I'm kidding and they did not know that. So they guessed Michael Jordan and they did not win the million dollars and I don't think ever made it back to the million dollar question. So I apologize that my family did not get a fake a million dollars because my own condescending answer. Yeah, Oh, you did, done. I know, I'm so so try. Actually, actually, actually, I don't think, Jordan, you ever even challenged it. The only guy who even got within twenty points of it was Kobe Bryant. I think he hit eighty one or something like that, but that isn't really very close to a hundreds, but I don't know. Yeah, it was, and I remember that game. I remember that game because it was it was the afternoon of, I believe, during the football season. It was either the like conference championships or super bowl or something like that. So it was like just a random Sunday afternoon game. That could that Kobe game. And Yeah, it was. I it seemed like he was scoring a lot, and I know he scored like, I don't know, the last twenty points or something like that. And yes, still still well off of hundred, which is just insane. And by that time he was trying to he was through feeding them to the to get the last twenty will, I think, just kind of scored about twenty five each for he was just pornman and all. The one thing he did well on a hundred point game that he didn't do well ordinary they was shoot free throws. You make something like twenty nine out of thirty two free throws if you get hey, if you make shooting them as normal, he probably would have gotten about eighty five, but he got about fifteen more than he normally would. What about it? Out of thirty two by getting again almost you know, all the three, because he he was a big bad retrowser. Did you get fifty percent? I would that was about normal for will for from the free phone. Good reminder it. Always practice your free throws. That's why, it's why...

...the coaches always hammer it in, because you can, you, I won't, maybe not score a hundred points some day, but maybe, you know, maybe someone listening is a future NBA player, and if you're not knocking down those free bees you're going to have a disappointing eighty five. The other side of the coin, no, is how many jogs as you get, just sheer strength, power leaven in athleticism that other people don't have. And that was one of the things that all four of those guys, the great players Hay was athleticism and naked. All four than could just jump through the roof. They could even well to could keep tremendous sleeper and they would gray asslet will. It was a quarter Mottin world's class quarter mile. Roberson picked up a baseball bat once, took a swing and hit the wall. Three hundred and seventy five pund solid line, and I saw this was it was. It was just a little show, you know, Give Oscar a pitch and let hit it. Everybody would smile. Only happen, you know, ask, but it grew up. He just ripped out of the ball. These guys were great athletes. Of course. Jordan, when he quote, retired and quote, two years is wresting his legs and retire. You knew he was coming back, but for two years, what are you doing? Like golf, play, like professional baseball? He was a great athlete. Broun James the same way. He's the great athlete. And you can tell it when you see them on the floor that they're all of them had this mut great musculature and but the grace. They all have, grace using the muscle down. Guys aren't that graceful. These guys were just phenomenal. Those for players, and we've talked about the the top players of all time, but you're also able to pick out some of the other, I more like niche, types of players, including like the best rebounder and kind of top playmakers and things like that. So are these four among that to or who is more like a specialist, like a greatest, let's go greatest rebounder and best playmaker in its pretty high on the list of several categories, let's put it that way. Robertson, of course, you know, the Riatest backcourt rebounder of all time and probably the greatest playmaker considered. They were real robbing him of about four or five assists a game by not counting the ones to players with their backs to the beast, which they now do, and so he was probably the not the greatest, playmaker. Stockton comes out in a logical formula, but for bulk stats, which are hard because you're when you play too many minutes, you get tired. But Robertson is playing forty five a game and Chamblin's playing like forty seven or so. Russell's playing forty. But in the prime, prime careers they just weren't on the pench uring much, but they were getting tired, except for Russell, who was wrestling in a lot of times at the defensive end of the floor. But these guys the the greatest rebounder, I thought would be either Russell or chamberlain, but logically it is which player got the highest percentage of the rebounds that were available in a game. And the only I who exceeded twenty percent was Dennis Roden. And I thought this because, boat totals he wasn't anywhere near Chamberlain and Russell, but his team played a much slower game pace that would love much less opportunities for wall possessions, and he also played a lot less minutes so russell and chamber and, even though they had a lot more total rebounds, Robin was actually a more efficient rebounder. I thought that because I'd know this can't be true. It can't be Cho it's got to be either chamberlain,...

Robinson or Russell, because they had the most. But it but that in that particular instance it wasn't wilt, it was Rodman in a drumming nuts, because I couldn't, I could not decipher it. You know Roden, who was not a world hero, but the stats don't lie. You know you get a logical stack. The Guy who's the best at it in Stockton was the best at at the playmaking with this percentage of assists, even though everybody in this generation would say no, and I would have the magic for my generation and we they would say, well, to be Robertson. Know who stocked and just like the rebounds, Rodman, the important thing is to get the logical statistic and and for assists it's the percentage. Percentage of team assists is one good way to do it, or just the percentage of team Basque. It's get you assist upon while you're on the floor. That's that's another good way. But you have to factive vector in ball possessions, and that one does. So you have a logical stat there were actually it was more than one tendex stat. They are actually two dozen of them, and only one of them. I had to just give up on it. I don't like this one. And when and a guy came along and Bublad, he said, will you don't like this? That let me use it. So I said yeah, go ahead, and he used it and it cut into an encyclopedia, because is that if I are data player database got into an encyclopedia and all and behold Michael Jordan. According to that encyclopedia, how many times do you think she was the player of the year in the NBA? I either every time or zero times. Euro, euro, because the stat didn't work. That's why I didn't like it, because it didn't work. What it did not do was to consider positional standards and and the and in the shooting guard positional standard rating or average rating for the shooting guards is way below that of the centers. So you had to make that adjustment. Jordan's percentage above the standard was the best in the League eight times, which, according to tendex, makes in the player of the year eight times. But that one found up tent extent. It was used, and I know that the guy who edited another guy who edited the Instiglape, he was big Jordan Bitch. He must to say, oh no, they were committed to using it. They couldn't change it till this minute. Okay, he's editing a book. It's robbing his favorite player of eight player year. I gotta laugh out of that guide. I didn't get along guy. I don't even going to tell you his name. Could I had a big smile at that. He pussed. I don't know how much flak he must have taken for that, but it must have been a lot, because there's a lot of Michael Roden change that must have hated that. And that was that. That was toward the end of career. He was still playing at that time, so that makes things even worse for that Port Cycle. That's fantast I'm just thinking back to the I grew up in Chicago, so I, you know, Michael Jordan very prevalent. I throughout that that time of growing up and yeah, watching Rodman and Hale, rebounds and and Jordan just stable day. It's seemed like getting a basket anytime I you know he needed to or put his mind to it, and it was just fantastic to watch all around. Now another topic of discussion. You'll see NBA fans arguing about this all the time. Beyond just greatest players or top rebounder or play to make or anything like...

...that, are the best teams of all times and we've seen some impressive teams. You know, there's the the warriors dynasty breaking the Bulls record of most wins in a regular season, even though they didn't win a championship. So I mean I think that takes them down a peg. But again, I'm a biased bulls fan, so that happens. But there's, you know, lots of great teams over the years and people are always debating back and forth between it. So through ten decks, who is the best team of all time? Well, first of all those those Bulls and warriors teams that won titles that you're talking about, the s with the Bulls, and then just recently when the layers had the great, great team with curry shooter and then good players at the other positions and including Chevin Durant, who's the best player on the team for for the you know, at the height of the team's teams to exist. He was the best player on the team. But they just had a lot of great players on that team and those two, the Jordan kipping kipping Rodman Bulls and the curry durant warriors, were two of the top three of all time. When you when you did the ratings at the the the up, the team that came out on top, and then in almost every category was in Milwaukee Bucks, the one thousand nine hundred and seventy, seventy one they had. They clinched the number one seed, a record and they were more than a months before the end of the season. The eighty already clinched. So the last six games they rested Robertson in up build the bar a lot and they lost five of the six. Otherwise they would have been right up there in the wind category with Bulls and and the wars. But even if, even with that terrible finish, they had the highest tend x rating, efficiency rating of any team in history and one of the team when of the reasons for it, I think, was they well, I played in the strongest division of the League in history. The every team in their division was a winning team, and they had. They won, I think the teams in the Division One something like seventy percent of their games. But they only won one game against the walkie bucks with Robertson into Robertson and Abdul Jabar. That that pig team on the lost one game in that in that division was phenomenal. They get in the playoffs. They only lost one game in the whole playoffs and and in the championship series they won four straight. Robertson shuts down with what's his name or all the Pearl Monroe, who was, who was a great player, but Robertson shuts him down. I've build a bar plays by sunsel and and it's it is no contest. And at that time there were literally eight good teams in the lake because there were eight different championship teams in the NBA. In the S, the next word at their peak at that time they had won two titles. The celsings were still strong. They want two more after Russell retired. So you know Russell wasn't one man taming habit check needs in the two more N s. But this Milwaukee Buck team was so good that they could just bedd whatever they want whenever they wanted. And they did have the greatest tend x rating of all time. If you don't count the has six games, it was one hundred fourteen point eight. If you do, cant it. If you do, can't count those five losses, of drops to something like a hundred twelve point something. But it's still the highest rate, that handex rating, of all time of any team, including the warriors and the Bulls teams. There's just no way, logical way, of denying that that team was the greatest of all time and of course abdute the bar was the second greatest center of all time behind Chamberlainney. Robinson was the greatest guard of all time. Well,...

...the greatest point guard. There's a debate between him and Jordan overall. But they had great players and they had another hall of Famer on the team and they had a great bench. They had hid they had no flaws whatsoever on that team. Now, the warriors and the Bulls did have a the bulls had a bad cent they were bad at the center position, really bad, and the wars were only average to center position. So after the bar could have torn either of those teams up and I think Robertson could have really him. I think curdie would have had a terrible time getting a shot off over Robertson from the back court. Everybody did when Robertson tried to show them down. I think that when you look at the matchups that that Milwaukee Buck team could have could have beaten those. Those are two great teams, but they were great. To be the number two and or number three the greatest of all time is not bad. And I come from New York where a lot of people arguing for the one of the two Nicks Nick teams, but that they weren't even close. It would just New York, you know, and I was in miaker myself, but they weren't even close to those three teams. Those three were great, great teams. I mean they warriors had a great to guard, play Thompson. I don't know he's still they are not because it's things have changed the last couple of years. But but and the Bulls, Jordan, Jordan's peak was before they won't started winning titles, but they didn't have any teammate. He didn't have any teammates up until nineteen eighty nine or nineteen ninety, eighteen, nineteen ninety. But then he's gets Pittan and and he gets HARS grant, who's good but not as good as rotten was came along. So they have for the nineteen ninety six team, which may have been their best. Probably was was Jordan was was came back fresh from his wrist, so he was almost as good as ever. See, at least for the S, which as good as ever. Tiffin was good as you guys ever, and Robin also, and they had they had what was his name, the point guard, well, actually Jordan was playing point at this time. Ron Harper part was actually a two guard also, but they wanted Jordan have the ball. So the truth of the matter is it Jordan. For a while there really was the point. He had the balls the time. Yeah, I very much enjoyed watching that, Taim, and I'll even argue as well that another top performance from Krima Duel Jabar, as he may have my favorite NBA Cameo in a movie, with his appearance and airplane I'd always cracks me up. Yeah, pretty good, terrifict job, perfect job on there. All right, deb you're almost off the hook, but we always like to wrap up with a top three, and you've been watching basketball, like you said, seventy five years, so lots to pick from, and this might be hard to to narrow down, but do you have top three moments from your NBA fandom experience? Okay, what? Well, obviously that the James saying. Now. It's house pretty awesome for a kid the turn around his world Chamberto points a game. He wants to know what you're doing that that's one of them. John Stockton assist in the one thousand nine hundred and ninety two Olympic Games. Never forget that one. I mean he's greatest. Magic and Robertson were this was the greatest even of individual assist probably ever. And and stocking really was the best point guard. He wasn't as flesh years magic and he wasn't as strong as Robinson, but he really was the greatest point guard for as far as getting the assist really doing it. In this one he is flying out of bounds trying to get...

...a loose ball. He's parallel to the ground and he's about to land with a crash in the seats beside the court. He gets his hand on the ball, his right hand on the ball, and Carl Malone sees it and immediately starts running toward the offensive the basket and he's open, but everybody else is thinking. Well, stock and is just going to back the ball back in the socked and somehow manages to get his hand around and under the ball before he crashes. And I happen to hurt and he gets it out of the gets his hand underneath the ball, but he gets it behind his back and flips it over his back just as he crashes and it goes through the year twenty five feet lands right in the long's hands for an easy lay up. I've never seen a better play like that. was just but ALB and I wasn't I wasn'live that when I was on tea. I thought that one TV, the the ablin thing, was sentimentally my favorite, obviously. And then I saw wealth again here before he died and he was with some kids that he was conducting a tent please and he kept kids. My real moments were great month Robertson. I actually I'm everybody else in that I didn't see a whole lot of it because his teams were so you know, they were small market team, so they weren't on TV very much. But whenever I did see him he was just slaughtering the opposition. I mean and play it. And in okay, in All Star Games Robertson was named twelve times to the team and he was partly half time, about half the time in the east and about half the time in the West. They were shifting the teams around. It sincinnati was going back and beporth and then they walkee too. They were in the middle, like the either east or West. He was on the winning team eleven times and you think wow out of twelve and he's thinking, Wow, what a coincidence. But then you start looking at the stats and you find out that the matchups and at that time they really tried to win the Games. They put the best player on the floor for thirty five minutes and they could played against each other head the head thirty five minutes. Then the reserves came in, just like the regular season games. They tried to win. So they played their best. And so Robertson is playing coozy and he and nihilates, just annihilates, and I told you about that. He does the same to Jerry West and nihilates. The Lakers. Get get really missed about that. So they said, well, we're going to get him with NASCAR. They said, well, we're going to put els and Baylor Against Robertson seasons, the greatest six child player in the history of the League. Well, Robertson Baylor was supposed to be big and strong and better, you know, strong as Robinson turned it out to be stronger than Baylor. Robertson a monster. They didn't call on the big old or not he had these huge muscles. BAILOR had more bulk, but Robertson strong, he can jump to you know he was great, don't he shuts bailer out for one quarter. The T Robertson teams ahead. The East seniors head by nine points. Robertson has nine points. He not only shuts bailor APP but he holds him down rebounds. He just put figure sets about. You know, maybe you got one or two rebounds. The West team puts bailor back to power forward and the east wind up winning the game by nine points. And I'm wondering if they had kept Baylor on Robertson for the other three quarters, would with the East Win by thirty six points, because Robertson was so much better than Baylor. M Robertson's persona. He was also the player leader who got the rules change so that when a team reafter player they didn't own...

...him forever. And of course that Robertson did that as much for himself as he did for everybody else. But he was a leader who did that and and from that time on, reserves who hard to play it at all, or millionaires before that. They were trying to make ends meet for their household because they weren't getting any money. So Robertson was important in that respect to I remember him for that. I remember read our back being a great coach and a great con man. Whenever somebody heard him talking about Bill Russell being the greatest player, they would say, well, what about jingle one or what about I was and you say, well, Russell used to puke before games. You know, like to just such a big, big revelation. You know. Well, you rustle used the big before games. Well, who cared? But if you read about this stuff, but it is this the media who were writing that it, took it seriously. They took it seriously. But you say something important. There were rustle, did you know he took before games? But you told W we got a lot of room in the locker room. That's all. But that was another not playing highlight. But but red arback was such he was. He was just so much better than any other coaches and he was so much better at evaluating talent. A he got he basically got a gut russell in a steel deal. He got burned in a steel deal. He just was so much better than everybody in the front office. That's highlights that I'm thinking about. The things that come to my mind right away. The only play that came to my mind was the stock and play, but the other things were highlights to you, the personals and, and I mean mentioned more about Robertson and Jordan because when I was Robertson was when I was young, when I really cared about it, and also because everybody knows about door. He was just fantastic, but everybody knows that. So I've really been talking more about Robertson and Jamberlin for that reason. James and Jordan were just about as good. It's put. Those four, though, really were the best work all time. Yeah, I'm glad I at least got to watch two of them. I growing up and still I know a lot of people are still Lebron haters out there and I'm just like, you can just admire how good he has a basketball like. You don't have to root for him, but like hate watching. It's not. It's never a way to go. I think it's like enjoy what you're doing. Yeah, yeah, that's because he didn't sign with the Knicks. He made decision and he made the decision at the two thousand and eight Olympics. We're Dwayne Wade was the best player he wanted to play with D Wayne Wade. He wanted to win. He wasn't winning much to tact I don't think he did want a title yet in Cleveland later he did win one in Cleveland. Many won one in La but he wanted to win titles. So he signs to be twayne wage teammate and they do. In four years. They go to the championship series four times and they win two titles. And Wade it was phenomenal, just like James was. So he was smart. They hated him because he didn't come in New York and that that's dumb. The dumb reason, and I'm in New York. It's the dumb reason, but that's the reason they hated you can go to New York. It's a smart, smart business, savvy by Lebron, which we've seen plenty of throughout throughout his career. For sure. I think those four guys were all smart guys as far as I can send. They go or wound up, you know, in a better environment than when they started out. Absolutely. And for people that want to learn more about you and and the tendex value rating and all of that good stuff, where can they find you? My...

...website is ten dicks by Dave Heroncom and heron is about h ee Erin, so that's tends by Dave Heroncom. Books are available there and also stuff, you know, like we've been talking about, but I was oncom. Is a fine way to go. fantastical, Dave. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat. I always love hearing about hoops and talking talking basketball, and there's plenty to dive in and I I'm obviously we only scratch the surface. There's so much more within the books. Appreciate you taking the time to chat. What was that sir, having me on, Joey, and thanks for giving me a time to talk. Sometimes like there's a ramble. I'm kind of like go rafter. He rambles sometimes and yet, especially in game, Brothers have the delay of some of going. He's a rambler and I'm a rambler. And by the way, he thought Robertson. He Thought Robertson was the greatest, awesome, the greatest. You did. You said that one time on duty. I like it. I like it. Well, in the spirit of Bill Raftery, let's tell a Corny joke to wrap up, as we always do. You know, basketball used to be really addicting for me, but thankfully I rebound it good after today. People, good people cool things is produced in Austin, Texas. If you were a fan of this episode, go ahead and hit that follow button. That helps more people here the show. You can send me a message, Joey, at good people, cool thingscom thank you to all of the guests who have been on good people cool things and check out all the old episodes via good people, cool thingscom. As always, thank you for listening and have a wonderful day.

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